56: The Guests I Cancelled On with Emily Haswell
I stumbled across Emily Haswell on TikTok, and I knew immediately that we would be friends. Listen to hear Emily’s TikTok about wearing the “circus tent with pockets” that led her to say (as a 33-year-old plus-sized woman), “I will NOT be influenced again by what the skinny-girl influencers say we MUST have!” She has started a de-influencing movement that I’m totally here for. Join us to laugh and learn more!
Show Highlights:
● How Emily got more followers when she started her honest, de-influencing movement
● Why KC hashired Emily as creative director for the Struggle Care podcast
● Why KC and Emily decided to cancel on having the well-known, Emmy-nominated Netflix stars, The Minimalists
● How we critique The Minimalists’ philosophy because it spreads shame and doesn’t hold the value we are looking for (and who really does the dishes in their house anyway?)
● How we have reacted to influencers with harmful messaging on health, hoarding, domestic tasks, etc.
Resources and Links:
Connect with Emily Haswell: TikTok and Instagram
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes
-
KC Davis 0:00
Well now you can't cut it now we just have to roll the whole thing exactly like this. Hello you sentient ball of stardust. I hired Emily Haswell yay
Hello, you sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And this is another bonus episode that I am giving to you. And I have a special guest with me, Emily, say hello.
Emily Haswell 0:22
Hi, I'm Emily.
KC Davis 0:24
So for those of you listening, I stumbled across Emily on Tik Tok and I want to play for you the Tick Tock that I saw. Okay, so I saw this tick tock and it's like this opening scene of a nursery and a woman and like asylum blue skivvies turned around on her knees and then all of a sudden you said this.
Emily Haswell 0:50
Did you think I was an escaped mental patient in your child's room? No, it's just me, Emily. And I'm wearing the two piece set that all you influencers told me to buy? And I looked like I could play the green screen. What is this? I ordered this do this free people hotshot do and I was so confident. Y'all had all said all you skinny girls told me you could wear this out to run errands. It's so comfy and it is comfy. Because it's a circus tent with pockets. It is comfy. But I put this on this morning in the dark. And I went to Wegmans with my baby. And then later on today, my husband saw me and he said did you play out? I said, Yeah. He said, Emily, that's a nightcap. I said, Oh, you're forgetting all the shorts, the shorts. So make it better. What are we? I will not be influenced again. I you know, here's the thing. I am a 30 year old plus size. I'm not 30. I'm 33. I have a 33 year old plus size woman. And I am watching these little girl skinny influencers and going oh, yeah, that's what I should get.Do you think that was correct?
KC Davis 2:03
So I just immediately knew that we would be friends. And you started a whole series of D influencing where you put on these outfits that as you say all these little little skinny girl influencers say we must have and then you just read them their rights.
Emily Haswell 2:21
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's funny because truly, like, I wanted that article of clothing for so long. Like, that's what's really heartbreaking about it's like, I wanted it for so long. And then I like randomly got an Amazon gift card. And I was like, today's the day can I treat myself and it looks so crazy. And three people who makes like the real version sent me a bunch of stuff. And it's so expensive. And you know what, it looks so silly.
KC Davis 2:50
That is the part that I just like deeply fell in love with your ethos is that like this tick tock you made of the like free people do is the one that I just played like got 4 million views or something. And it caught the attention of free people that makes like the original and they sent you free stuff.
Emily Haswell 3:11
They sent me so much stuff review.
But like the person that was messaging me from free people movement, which I guess is like their athleisure line or whatever was so nice. Like I I felt bad. I kept saying like, do you care that I'm like making fun of this. And she was like, I want you to make up a character for every single thing that I sent you. Like because people were saying like, now I kind of want to buy this it looks comfy. So like I guess they were still getting the sale? I guess so. And I mean, it is comfy. It's the greatest pajamas. I have for sure. Big shirt. Pockys it's great, but ya know, I couldn't lie to the people. I couldn't watch them and say this was worth $80 Were you nervous about like, talking about how silly it looked on you when they'd like set you free shit. Here's the thing I wasn't nervous because I knew there was no fucking way that I could stand on camera wearing these clothes and say like, Don't you guys love this? Don't you think I looked great? Like I couldn't do that because I didn't look great. I looked I mean they sent me a lot of stuff that was like way better than the dupe and stuff that I wear to like run errands and because whatever but like I couldn't go look at them in the eye and say yes, you guys should run out and pay $70 for these like kick around clothes like there's no way if I looked better I wouldn't maybe lie and try to get that free people partnership going. But no, no, I couldn't do it. I just love that. And so you have this whole series of de influencing and did it blow up your like did you get a lot of followers after you started doing that? I did I got a lot of followers, which is interesting because for so long I was just making like mom content It, you know, it was always like, it was always humor base like I was always joking around, I was never like, in my white kitchen like holding my baby and being perfect or anything. I don't know exactly how many followers I got from that. But I definitely got a lot and I got a lot of people like just watching every one of those videos consistently.
KC Davis 5:18
So I'm watching these, like de influencing videos of you. And you're so funny. And you're so creative. And I was genuinely so impressed and tickled by you continuing to like roast the EverLiving shit out of these outfits, even after the company sent them to you for free. And there was a part of that that was like, I mean, I love that vibe. I love that integrity. And I love that, just like holding on to yourself and what you want to do. And I thought that was great. And then I saw you post the video where you were like, does anybody have any work from home jobs? Because I want to drive off a cliff. Because you I guess you'd gone to a job interview?
Emily Haswell 5:55
Yeah, I went to a job interview. So you know, I've been a stay at home mom for all 18 months that my daughter has been alive. And I really like it, which I didn't think I would, but I do. But they reached out to me like this job reached out to me. And it was just like kind of a too good to be true opportunity. So I was like, Well, I have to go in for the interview. And it was a writing job in which they had a board where they ranked the writers every day for everyone to see. Oh, so Oh, that's exactly what I said in the interview.Love that. Love. Good.
KC Davis 6:34
Let me tell you nothing sparks my personal creativity, like being rated against my peers on a daily basis.
I called you and I said well, I want to hire you. So I did. I hired you as my creative director for the podcast because I am a fucking basket case. And I am chronically underprepared. For every podcast that I show up for I'm just put my cards on the table here, guys. I started recording for my podcast like a year before I actually started it because I was I lived in fear that I would not be disciplined enough to like keep up with a weekly recording. And in three weeks, I run out of pre recorded episodes, and I still haven't like put more on the books. And so like the nightmare is happening. And so I just needed a little help. And meanwhile, my networks like you should put out more episodes. And I was like, So what's interesting is like, you literally came on board, like maybe the day that I canceled on like, a huge guest.
Emily Haswell 7:30
Yeah, that was so I mean, it was like very, it was the most thrilling thing I've done during that time in a while, which is like, not my naptime by the way. Which was like, talk to you about like, in real time. Like you were like, Yeah, I'm just gonna like research these people. Will you help me a little bit? And I was like, Sure. And then both of us at the same time, were kind of like, Hey, what is this? Like? What's going on here? And yeah, ultimately decided you decided? No, which I think was a really good call.
KC Davis 8:03
Yeah, so so basically what happened was I booked these, like, huge guests. I was so shocked that they even emailed me. And before we started recording, we went back and forth. Like, are we going to drop the name about this? Guest? Are we gonna Solly this guests name?
Emily Haswell 8:20
I think you should tell you
KC Davis 8:21
listen, time will tell whether you are ultimately a good or bad influence on me, but
Emily Haswell 8:27
or like, yeah, you'll be like Emily was the worst creative director. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I can't even throw you totally under the bus. Because we're recording the conversation about it. I can't pull like the ultimate white woman and be like, my team posted this. My team and it's just me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Don't worry. It's just me, Emily. It's just me, Emily.
KC Davis 8:52
Okay, so let me set the stage for everybody. I get this email. And it is a PR person for the minimalists. The name is out there. Wow, powerful. The name is out there. They apparently have a Netflix show. They have a tick tock they like I don't know what they do things. It's men have a New York Times bestseller. They were nominated for an Emmy. And then they talk shit about the Emmys. But they didn't win an Emmy who love that for them. So all of this kind of gives the idea that that we're looking at more than just men with microphones, and they said, you know, hey, we would love to come set the guys up to come on the struggle care podcast. And at first I'm like, I sat on the email for a long time. So I'm like, I don't know if anybody is familiar with the minimalists. But like, they have this saying where they say like something to the effect of like, if your house is full of junk, then you're just living in a landfill with four walls or just like kind of weird Shamy shit, and they're very Uber kind of spiritual, not like religious, but like very zen about like being minimalists. And so they, I was sort of surprised like That's so weird like I have quite literally the opposite philosophy as these people like I am a self professed like functional maximalist, I have a lot of shit. I like my shit. I don't think your ship means anything about you at all about like, morally neutral approach to care tasks. And so I sat on it for weeks. And then I finally thought, well, maybe there could be good content. And I emailed back, but I wanted to be like, I wanted to have like integrity in it and say, like, hey, the only episode I see coming from this would be like talking about our differing approaches, and maybe challenging each other on those approaches. And I had actually stitched one of their tic TOCs, and was like, highly critical of the TIC tock and I even sent that to her. And I said, Please, you may want to watch this first. And then, like, make sure you really want to talk to me, and make sure they've seen this. So I'll play for you the Tick Tock that I stitched of them. Yeah, I don't think I've heard this yet.
Male Speaker 10:59
Every inanimate object in your house is having a conversation with you whether you know it or not. And I realized my guitars are always saying, Are you just done playing music? Is that who you are? Now? Are you are my books are like, are you gonna be stupid forever? And like, I've got clothes in my closet. They're like, why? Remember, when you used to exercise and you were actually in shape? We're just gonna be fat dead now. Is that Is that where we're headed? The dishes in the sink are like, Oh, you're gonna be that husband that just hates his wife. You can be that guy. You're hoarding hope it never. It was just lightbulb the camera, I'm having 10,000 conversations at the same time. The woodworking stuff is like, Oh, you're never gonna build that treehouse for your son or you. And he's going to go to college and you're going to share some we'll get to a cat's in the cradle. It never stops. And so it's really almost pathologically almost like civil. I'm trying to shut the voices. Yeah. And at some point, I can't compete. I've got to hand some of this stuff out. Right? Because it didn't stop. And if it were to spontaneously combust. The voices stop. Yes, always. as well.
KC Davis 11:59
Before we get into it, let me just play with you the steps that I did, like, your books aren't calling you stupid. Your exercise clothes, aren't fat shaming you. Those voices are not coming from the inanimate objects in your home books. Don't think dishes don't judge. Those voices are coming from your head, you are the one who talks to you yourself that way. And no amount of purging your material possessions in search of this perfect minimalist aesthetic is going to fix the way that you talk to yourself. Just like hoarding items doesn't protect you from loss and pain. Giving away your items does not protect you from self judgment and shame. So I sent that and I was like, let them watch this. Make sure that they understand like what kind of conversation we're going to have. Because I genuinely thought like, maybe that'll be like a helpful conversation. Like maybe I want to understand more about their journey to minimalism and what that's doing for them. And maybe, you know, I can push back a little bit on that. But I will say like listening to it again. It's just so interesting to me. It's such a weird take of like, I'm inconsiderate to my wife. So if I get rid of the dishes, I won't feel bad about that anymore.
Emily Haswell 13:12
That was a weird like that one moment really made me go like, Wait, what is he saying? You're really going to hate your wife is that what do you sound like? What are you talking about? Because she's not doing the dishes because you're not doing the dishes like? Yeah, that really gave me pause, or like the project he was doing for his kid. I'll just get rid of the project. And then I wanted to think about that fact. I promised my kid I would make this. Yeah, that was confusing as well, your kids? So? Yeah, I don't know. And like maybe my opinion is informed by like the fact that you and I went down like a rabbit hole with them. And we watched a lot of their videos and a lot of their other content. But like, yeah, I just, number one. I feel shamed by that. Right. Like, my house is a mess. I'm not a an organized person. I have a toddler. I don't have any free time. And when I do have free time at night, I sit down and I watch Love is blind. Like I cannot bring myself to take my two hours of free time a day and spend it like organizing and cleaning. I just can't. But the other thing is that yeah, it's like, I think you made that point so beautifully is that like those voices are coming from you. Like, you don't fix an internal problem externally.
KC Davis 14:29
Either way, right? Like keeping your shit or giving her shit away. Totally. You just have to like, figure out like, Who's that voice coming from? So we scheduled this interview they ended up needing to reschedule so we put it so I mean, my point is, is that this thing is on the schedule for like three weeks. And this is my part. Are you ready for being accountable? Like I did not sit down to like really dive into their stuff and come up with interview questions until like the morning before the interview that the interview is at 2pm I sit down at like 9am and I'm like, I'm gonna start like reading stuff. That is me. I'm not I'm gonna put a judgment on that. That's just always me, right? So I sit down to do it. And I'm like coming up with questions. I'm coming out with questions, and I'm going down through. But like, the longer I go through the content, and that guy that was talking, like he has his own tick tock that I actually follow, because I actually have liked some things that he has said before. But when I went to there, the minimalist tick tock, that guy wasn't there, it was just some other guys. And I'm scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. And I'm like, there's not a lot of value here to work with. And there were some stuff in the area of like talking about our space, where I was like, Okay, I want to ask some questions. I want to ask about how you became a minimalist. What is minimalism mean to you? Like, how has it impacted you? So I was going down, but what happens is, is that I get to this point where they start talking about food. And it's like, really intense, like, bro, toxic diet, culture, and fat shaming, and which there's even a little bit in that clip that you just played. And so I start to go like, Oh, no, like, it became obvious that like, there wasn't a lot of value content to work with to like, create a conversation. And like, I'm not interested in having a podcast where I like, invite someone on and then just like, blow their shit up. Like I'm not interested in like, embarrassing people, or like nailing someone to the wall or so like gotcha journalism, like, I don't really want to do that. However, if you have someone that's saying something so problematic, and you don't address all that problematic shit, like, that just doesn't feel like integrity to me, because now I've like, elevated these people on my platform. And even if I'm, like, challenging in good faith, and having a conversation on my episode, like, you know, I texted you and I was like, Ah, I don't know what to do. I don't think I can do this interview with integrity. But I don't think it'd be fair to them. I don't think it would have been I feel integrity to me, I don't think it's something I want to put in front of my audience. And you and I, like went down a rabbit hole and, and you and to read it, which is like genius.
Emily Haswell 17:16
I just wanted to see, like what people were saying, just about, like, what was the how are people feeling? And again, I am not like an expert on the minimalist. You know, I just learned about them the other day, but from what I could tell people were like, had gotten really into them during the pandemic, and kind of at home being like, Alright, I want to clean out my house. I want to declutter all that stuff. And then they were kind of like, why are these men who are telling me to declutter, also trying to sell me a book? And why are they also trying to like, why are they putting everything behind a paywall? Because I guess the majority of their podcast is behind a paywall. And I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there's people for whom they really helped. And I'm sure there are people that are still totally on board. Like I don't doubt that they they don't still have fans, of course, but it seems like some people are starting to question things, I guess.
KC Davis 18:22
Yeah, I found a Tiktok of someone who was like, you know, I used to follow the minimalists. And now I don't. And, you know, she talked about kind of the DIS what she felt like, was kind of the turn and content. And like, I can't, like emphasize how much the like fat phobic stuff really bothered me. And eventually, we got to one where one of the guys was like, Well, I used to be obese. And I went, Ah, there it is. When I learned from maintenance phase, when Aubrey talks about how some of the most fat phobic people that she's ever met are people who were formerly fat.
Emily Haswell 19:03
Yeah, there's just such it's, I mean, obviously, that's really sad that there's such self hatred there. The thing that really stuck out to me, I mean, the fat phobia obviously was, you know, really obvious from the jump, but there was this one video. I'm trying to find it right now. Oh, okay. Here it is. So they had this doctor on I don't know if you saw this one. And he was talking about like, how he basically like, was able to like save his health by just like eating healthy and exercising and like not eating seed oils, which I guess seed oils like not eating seed oils is a very like, kind of far right? Conspiracy sort of thing. I'm not sure like it maybe it's a dog whistle. Yes, it felt like a dog whistle. And that's the other thing right? It's like the kind of guests that you have on your show and that you let speak freely and that you then click and put on your tick tock like that says something
KC Davis 20:00
I think I did hear him. Is he the one that's like you don't cheat. You never cheat. Like everything was just very moralized.
Emily Haswell 20:06
He is that one. And he also said, like, at the beginning, so the beginning of the clip he's going on, he's talking about all the health issues he had, right? And it's very strange. He's saying, I had erectile dysfunction. I couldn't pay. I had eczema. And there were blood all over my sheets. I made noises. And my kids mimicked those noises when I was moving around the house. And then I started to eat healthy and exercise. And I'm so mad because I'm a doctor. And they should have told me they should told me in medical school that this is all it takes, right? Like that was kind of what he was saying. And it was very, the vibes are strange that right? The vibes are given Joe Rogan guest it's a little scary. And I watched it, and I was like, Oh, my God, and then I watched it with my husband. And he was like, first of all, no one's keeping the information from you to like, eat well, and exercise. Like, it's not a secret. And also, like, it's no one's telling you like, like, when you go to the doctor, the doctor isn't like, don't worry about eating well, or exercising. Just take these pills, like your doctor is always like, yeah, try to eat less, or try to eat better, or try to walk around the block whatever, like, which can be problematic, right? Like, even if you're having a real problem. Sometimes that is their advice. But he this guest that they had on. Let me find his name. Dr. Shawn Mara. Yeah, it wasn't just Oh, diet culture. It was like straight up fat phobia, medical misinformation. It was like, I'm a doctor, and I'm telling you don't go to the doctor. Just diet and exercise. That's really scary thing to say. And then he was talking about not cheating. Like, he was like, if you have a single bit of ice cream, your body has a an unhealthy orgy. And it's like, Do you know how harmful that messaging is for someone that is struggling with an eating disorder?
KC Davis 22:02
Also, did you just say unhealthy orgy?
Emily Haswell 22:04
He said the word orgy. I'm not even being funny right now. He said the word orgy. And he was talking about microbes. Yeah, microbiome, and I don't know, it was not sounding. Right. I mean, but yeah, just the thing of like, if you have one drop of ice cream, like, I don't think you should be saying that. It's giving very like health bro to alt right pipeline. That is exactly what it is giving. They also were speaking about cording. One of them was talking about like, his brother owns an apartment building. And are you doing what I'm going to talk about? Yes, yes, brother.
KC Davis 22:43
Well, that was the other thing is they were throwing around the word hoarding, in a very casual manner, like hoarding is, in fact, like a serious psychological disorder that like has specific parameters to it. It's not just like, it's not just like Americans are over consuming. If you walk into somebody's house, it's not like we're all a little bit hoarders.
Emily Haswell 23:06
Yeah, if you walk into somebody's house, and it's like, messy, they're not a hoarder. That's not what hoarding is. But yeah, I mean, right. But anyway, he was like talking about how like, and my brother was trying to help clean up this, this hoarders apartment hoarder in quotes. And he started to have that demon whisper in his ear. It was like, you could save me this and I was like, What is going on here today on this day? Why are so many inanimate objects talking to y'all?
Which really might be great dudes, like, I do not know them at all. But I do think that they are maybe a little misguided in their messaging. For sure.
KC Davis 24:24
So I ended up emailing the PR person, like two hours before the interview and just said, like, I am so sorry for the late notice, but I'm gonna have to cancel the interview. I don't think this is a good fit. And I guess you didn't check your email until they were all in the studio. And that wasn't there. And because I get an email and I'm just like, anxious. I get an email back that's like, Hey, we're our whole team came into the studio today to do this interview. Can we jump on a phone call and talk about, like, what's going on? And like, we don't have to talk because I had said, you know, I have a lot of listeners that are in eating disorder recovery. I can't get Down with the fat phobic like the diet culture content. She's like, well, we don't have to talk about that. And I just emailed back and was like, listen, I apologize. I don't have a whole team. So like, it was just this morning that I was finishing up the research, and that is on me, that's inconsiderate to cancel that late notice, because I could have prepared beforehand I could have prepared before I even accepted. That is a negative impact that my own, like ADHD has on people, that is my responsibility to mitigate. And it didn't mitigate very well there. It just sucks that it still was the right thing to do. And at that point, the only options were to do that.
Emily Haswell 25:33
Yeah. Like obviously, ideally, you would have looked at this stuff earlier and gone, like oh, no, like, I don't want to do this. But it just it worked out the way that it did. Like you said, you don't have a whole team. And now I have you. Yes. And I will. Now I have you to read up about people on Reddit before we accept interviews. And yes, well, and you know, I'm just such an organizing great person. So that's gonna always work out 100% of the time. But I feel like we can always organize for people that aren't ourselves. It's true. And together, we make one organized person, I think half or two half organize people make one organized person. No, but I mean, to be honest, like I love doing this kind of stuff. I have like a background in journalism. So kind of doing a deep dive into people coming up with interview questions, but also just like having these behind the scenes conversations with you where we can go like, is this the right thing? How do we handle this? Like, I do feel very prepared for that. So I think that's going to be good. But yeah, I think it was the right call. It was tough. And I'm sorry, to anybody that's listening to this that like loves them or got a lot out of them. I mean, I think that you can like, take the good out of something. And that's great. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But you know how I screen you have some ice cream. I'm gonna go have some ice cream right now of ice cream. Yeah,
KC Davis 26:50
instead of most of my things. And all my stuff on my guitar that's talking to me. Well, Emily, thank you so much. I'm so glad to have you on the team. And I think we're gonna make great things together.
Emily Haswell 27:02
Thank you. I'm so excited too
KC Davis 3:16
In the review was you being like, not still silly bra.
I just know that I just got a bad feeling in my skivvies that I wasn't going to be able to find enough value to have a productive conversation. That wouldn't be me just like ignoring the elephant in the room, and platforming what I think is kind of like a dangerous shaming message. It's like at its best, very shaming, very pop psychology, very self help fluff to me. And at its worse, like deeply harmful messaging. And like, they might be great dudes, but like, I don't think they're doing a great message out here.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai