64: Love is Blind and Toxic Relationships, Part 1 with Emily Rose

If you are an avid Love is Blind watcher, you will definitely relate to this episode. If you haven’t watched the show, we will catch you up on the structure of the show and why it is so fascinating as a study in relationships, both healthy and toxic. Emily and I both made lists of relationship red flags that we noticed in Love is Blind, and we are discussing those and how they relate to real-life relationships. As a disclaimer, I know that reality TV is heavily edited and that everything is contextual. We don’t know these people personally, so please take our opinions with a grain of salt. Join us!

 Show Highlights:

●      A look at Izzy and Stacey’s relationship—and the red flags on both sides of this polarizing couple

●      A Red Flag: Teasing and comments about appearance

○      What to watch out for: In early dating relationships, look out for how quick someone is to tease you about your physical appearance.

●      A Red Flag: When someone doesn’t have the emotional skill set to hold space for past trauma, mistakes, and vulnerability

○      What to watch out for: Someone who wants to establish their moral superiority to hold the power in the relationship.

●      A Red Flag: When someone’s enjoyment of me decreases if I’m not sexually attractive to them

○      What to watch out for: Someone who shuts down when you don’t look your best.

●      A Red Flag: Fake intimacy defending itself as “honesty” in disclosing vulnerabilities that are hurtful to their partner

○      What to watch out for: Someone who is emotionally immature about what intimacy and vulnerability mean in a monogamous relationship

●      The nuances of financial stability in a relationship–and who should pay for dates

●      Factors that determine compatibility in a relationship–and why that matters so much

 Resources and Links:

Connect with Emily Rose: Instagram and Podcast

Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook

Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.

  • KC 0:05

    Hello, you sentient ball of stardust. This is struggle care. I'm your host, KC Davis. And I'm in the studio today with Emily Rose host of the podcast. It's become a whole thing. Hello, Emily.

    Emily 0:14

    Hey, KC. So lovely to chat.

    KC 0:17

    I'm excited about our upcoming conversation about love is blind and relationships and red flags and all that good stuff. Tell us a little bit about your podcast and where people can find it. Because we're going to do part of it here. And then we're going to do part of it over on your platform.

    Emily 0:32

    Yeah. So with it's become a whole thing. It's a subversive look at pop culture through the lens of the best and worst moments of reality TV. So there's no shortage of content there. And we look at it through the lens of relationship dynamics, diet, culture, cults, or cult like mentalities and how that's presented to us through reality TV, you can find it everywhere you find podcasts. And then I also do a slightly more unhinged weekly episode over on Patreon. That's hot topics and various life ramblings.

    KC 1:09

    So our chat we just recorded, it was like two hours long. Yeah. So what we're gonna do for y'all listening is we're going to split that episode into two, we will run one part here on struggle care, and then you can hop over to it's become a whole thing on all podcast platforms and hear the other part of that conversation. You don't want to miss it, the whole thing was so good. So Emily, thank you. And here we go. I was like this woman, those of you who don't watch Love is blind, there's this couple. And we're, by the way, if you don't want love is blind, it's fine. We're gonna catch you up on what we're talking about, we're not just gonna jump in. But the premise of the show is that they take these men and they there's these women that have never met each other. And they throw them together into these pods, meaning that they are sitting in this little room. And there's like this frosted glass between them, so they cannot see each other. And they basically like speed date, through these like frosted glass windows, so you can hear each other, they can't see each other. And the idea is that at the end of the experiment, I don't know how long they spend on the pods, like a week or something. But two weeks, maybe I don't know, they propose to someone like they pick someone to marry and propose to them sight unseen. And then there's like this reveal where they meet each other. And then they go on a trip, and then they move in together. And then like two weeks later, they go to the altar. And they either have to say like I do, or I don't. And they like save that decision for the end. Yeah,

    Emily 2:32

    so Lauren and Cameron really set the bar. Disturbingly, they're so lovable, and incredible. And one of the best couples come out of any reality TV dating show. And it feels a bit like a gong show since that, like it sort of feels like love is blind, in general has unraveled. And as far as looking for red flags, like there's no shortage of them in this season. So I was wondering if you wanted to kick it off with a red flag that stood out to you? Yeah.

    KC 3:03

    So and I'll say this, like, disclaimer, I don't know these people personally, everyone knows that, like reality TV is heavily edited. And everything is contextual. So I don't necessarily mean anything that I'm saying. Like, take it with a grain of salt. Whether it like applies to these people. Personally, I'm more just wanted to bring out like, because I talk a lot on my channel about relationships and about like, what are red flags and green flags. But when it comes to people being like, Okay, but what are the examples? I'm like, there are some perfect examples in this show. So the first one as I have like, teasing, and specifically like comments on appearance, so there's a couple in earlier seasons where like, that was like a big theme, but I specifically actually have two different clips that I wanted to play. And I want to talk about, like what I as a therapist see in these clips, okay, so let me give you a little intro. So this couple their names are Milton and Lydia, and this is on their little trip. So they have their little reveal and now they're starting to spend time together. And they have this interaction where she makes a comment that his ears are small. And he's like, Well, your ears are kind of big and she's like, Well, my ears are proportionate to my face. And so that's why we're picking up this conversation. Okay.

    I think you have a small face. Mason's and then big nose. Big Mouth to see a little bit a little bit ingrown hairs. I know I will punch I feel like wait till tomorrow shake or it's gonna hurt. can pick them out with a tooth. ever do that? Like that. I don't like it. It's gonna get nice and full. No All by I will say on this wedding day. No, I did not approve. Maybe I'll even really go to I'm not seeing any client not gonna do.

    Okay, so let me just give you some thoughts off the dome here. First of all, teasing and relationships is really contextual, like, so I'm not gonna say like, Oh, if you're ever teasing about appearance, however, one of the things that I find that happens that I really want people to look out for in early dating relationships, okay, is how quick someone is to tease you about appearance. Because oftentimes, and what I see with this example, and what the next one I'm going to show you, there's a difference between like, we've been together a really long time, and there's like a funny, you know, like my husband jokes that he's going to cut his hair into a mullet. And I'm like, Don't you dare, I would hate it or whatever, right? Or, you know, any of that this is early relationship, though. And what I find is that people will make these comments, and they'll pass it off as teasing. But there's like, some genuine irritation underneath where they're, like, not happy with something about you. And they want you to change something about you physically. So whether it's little comments about your weight, little comments about your hair, and I'm not talking I love when you wear your hair like that, right? But comments, kind of like what you see Lydia doing here. And in my opinion, she is criticizing him, because she is like has control issues. And that is something I think is going to be a mainstay in their relationship, that will always happen. And that to me, personally would be a huge deal. Like, I don't know, my husband has never criticized my appearance, even in teasing. Okay, this

    Emily 6:53

    is so fascinating to me. Because yes, I think it's important to distinguish what's okay in an early relationship and what's not because the teasing is, when it's in a healthy fun banter kind of way, it's something you build into, as you build trust to know like, you know, I can say a sarcastic comment to my partner, he knows, of course, I'm joking, we immediately will laugh. And if it was early on, it might be like, Who is this person? This is something that I'm looking at through the lens of I think, yes, Lydia has control issues. I think Milton is just along for the ride and seems to enjoy the thrill at this point, what I can't separate out is for me and my partner. So there's like this cultural difference where him and his family are from Mexico. And it's so different there the way that you comment on people's appearance. And this is something that we've talked over in terms of like, okay, what is acceptable? What is important to understand culturally, and then what is just something that universally is not going to be well received. So, with his family, like, they'll be like, you know, they're luckily there, they don't do this to me, but to him, they'll pinch his stomach and be like, Oh, gordita, you know, the first moment they see him? I would never imagine that in like, a white North American family. But so witnessing that I'm like, okay, you know, I see that there is some of that and, and at the same time, like there's ways that you navigate this, and there's the way that like talking about oh, your beard, and no, it's not acceptable. Like, that's not, I would say cultural difference. That's more just Lydia being very intense about wanting everything to be a specific way. And Milton just be like, I'm just, yep, whatever you want to do, you can just run through this situation. Well, I

    KC 8:41

    think that's kind of what it is for me. And I'm glad you pointed that out. Because if it's just you have little ears, you have a big mouth, like you're right, like culturally, making observations like that doesn't have ill intent depending on who you are. And so I'm glad you brought that up, because I do want to specify that for me the bigger red flag and like, if I was talking to a friend or a child and like giving them advice, it's the you're not going to do that. It's when the observation comes with almost like a coercion, or a preference of like, I want you to like there's this undercurrent of like so never wear your beard like that, please. Like we all have preferences. Like my husband knows that I like his beard and I hope he keeps his beard but like if tomorrow he decided to shave it. I wouldn't continue to make comments about Oh, you look so babyface. Oh, when's the beard coming back? Oh, with Does that make sense? Oh, completely.

    Emily 9:35

    And I need to also specify like all of her would never in a million years be like this is you're not wearing this like or you're not doing this or whatever. Like he really lifts me up but just in terms of like pointing out physical things. That is something that we've had to piece out what is just lost in translation and then what is just like personality things but it's like with the paper plates like with everything you're are putting things out there at the beginning and seeing how someone receives it. And you're never going to have a perfect match between the two of you. So it's how you deal with that. So even if Lydia's behavior is not healthy, it fits well with Milton who's just seems fine to go with the flow.

    KC 10:18

    That's the number one question is, Does that bother you? And if it doesn't bother you, it's not an issue. And I will say like, there's also like, neuro type implications, right? Like someone who's autistic might be making observations, and they're not making a criticism. They're literally making observations. And so for me, personally, I think it's that turn of, well, you're not going to do that with me. And you're going to It's like the difference between I love your hair up and oh, I wish you would wear your hair up more often. Your hairs down, it looks a little frizzy, you want to put it up like that, to me. And some of this is just personal, like, I could not survive or thrive in a relationship like that. Definitely

    Emily 10:56

    not. But yeah, the neuro type is an interesting also other dimension to add to it, because there's certain things that like saying, you look tired to a lot of people, that's an immediate visceral, like, don't say that that's rude. But to someone who is neurodivergent, or from just a culture, that's fine, they wouldn't be thinking anything of it. Of the You look tired. But they're, they do seem to be a good fit Milton and Lydia for all of their flaws. I

    KC 11:26

    think he's eventually going to be irritated. I see. Sometimes he like pushes back pretty hard.

    I'm not going to pretend like I wouldn't call up a friend after a day and be like, he was so creepy. He never blinked like, yeah, we're all human. We all make snap judgments. Like it's not a fault to feel those things about someone or to think those things. It's not a fault to not be attracted to someone. But you should for sure not tell someone that

    Emily 11:53

    Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah, you can think these things. You can say them in the group chat with your best friends, what have you. But it's you're not supposed to say that. And I think it's the same for really positive things like you first meet someone, you're like, Oh, my God, I'm picturing our whole lives together. Like, that's a thought too, that can pop up. But again, it's like judging whether that's appropriate to say out loud, which at first meeting is not, is where the real test comes in. And are you familiar with the Gottman Institute,

    KC 12:20

    very familiar, like, I know about the bids and all that. Okay.

    Emily 12:25

    So I don't know what your opinion is on them. But to me, when I was looking for red flags, and just looking at their relationships in general, I was seeing it through the lens of bids. And all I was seeing everywhere were rejected bids. And I just, I love the idea of bids. So for anyone who is unfamiliar, it's basically an attempt for one partner to turn to the other and get attention affirmation affection, like it could be something like simple as like a smile, like you smile at them, they return your smile, or being like, oh, look out there, look out the window, and they look and go, Oh, what is that? You know? And so a rejected bid would be like, No, I'm busy right now, which, you know, like, that's just a very small example. And that can happen. But on a bigger level, like they're putting themselves out there. And everyone in this equation on this whole show of love as well. And season five are just rejecting each other's bids, and like running them over left and right.

    KC 13:21

    Yeah. And there's, you know, it's just a bid for connection is all it is right. And it doesn't have to be huge. It can be really subtle. You put your hand out, or you ask your partner about their day or whatever. And I think that that's also what we see, like, that's a great observation that like what we're seeing here is, she says, like, hey, what do you think of the way I look? Right? And in that, like, is a bid, like, let's have this and he, like, we don't know whether he was like, totally pleased with the way that she looked. But he recognized that, like, there's this reach across the aisle kind of right, and he returns it with like, you're taller than I thought, but that's a good thing. Right? And but when he returns that, like, what did you think of me? Like to me, she very purposefully turned against that bid and like refuses to re extend any like validation or affection or connection. And it's often said that the Gottman study marriage, that's not exactly true. And one of the criticisms of Gottman, is that Gottman actually studies divorce. He looks at couples that are divorcing, and couples that are staying together. And he identifies what is in common with the ones that are divorcing and what's in common with the ones that are staying together. And they have incredible resources about those observations. So they talk about like the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and it's like criticism, disturbing. I don't know what they are. He talks about the bids. He saw that like okay, when two out of three bids are mis directed or whatever, like that person is going to get divorced. They talk about all This, but one of the interesting, and I wouldn't even say it's criticism, but like critical thinking observations about them, that some therapists have brought up is, are these things, causes of the divorce, or are these things the products that you see of whatever's going on, that leads to the divorce. So for example, we talk about bids. And we say that like when your partner says, Oh, look at a bird, or how was your day or reaches out their hands to you, or any of that, we can observe that couples that go on to get divorced, are frequently turning away from and turning against those bids. So they're kind of like purposefully missing the chance to make that a moment of connection, whereas couples that stay together are frequently answering bids with affection and things like that. And that's true. But what happens from that is that then we get into this how to where people start talking about now we have to teach people how to respond to bids, we'll see that was a bid your wife made, and you missed it. And I think that there is some validity to that, because we may not be understanding when a bit is happening. And oh, if I slightly changed my reaction to that I could express the way that I actually feel. And there are certainly couples out there that deeply love each other, but are having deep miscommunications and feel alone. And sometimes you're missing the bid, because you don't like that person. You know what I mean? Like, if they don't like each other, if they don't respect each other, like teaching O'Shea how to respond differently, to Alia as bid may not be appropriate, because the issue isn't, oh, she's vulnerable. And, like, we don't want to teach him to just cover up the fact that like, he doesn't like her, like he is so disgusted by her behavior that he doesn't like it. And I think sometimes you see people like the bids are being missed, because they don't have affection for each other. You know, I mean, there's just so much like, my partner, and I have issues, everyone has issues, and sometimes they are very difficult to deal with. But I always say that, like we really like each other. And so almost every interaction is a received bid. Yeah. And

    Emily 17:04

    that's a really good point, because I actually hadn't thought of bids in terms of causation or correlation. You know, saying whether this is something that is the result of or this will cause it, the extent to which I liked the idea of a bid is just a good way of putting a label in context to your partner shutting you down, or not? Because yeah, we're going to be shutting down people that we don't like or don't agree with, or what have you. But I didn't realize until much later in life, that when you are compatible, there's so many bids, most of them will be received with open arms, that goes to, you know, when you're not in the same mood, but you still you know, find a way to bridge the difference or for me, pop culture is something that I love. And most straight men have found to be quite condescending, disparaging about it, that I love pop music, pop culture, all those things. And so but most of my bids, like if Oliver comes home, and I'm like, I need to tell you about something that happened like with the Kardashians, like he knows, like, yeah, okay, I'm gonna sit down and listen, even if it's not. And that might be a big ask, but it doesn't matter. Because there's, we're always going to, when you have the right person, you'll shine it on or you'll find a way to be just excited that that other person is excited. And

    KC 18:25

    that's kind of what I mean. It's like sometimes the issue goes deeper than just teaching someone. And sometimes that happens, like you realize, like, oh, when they're trying to talk to me about baseball, and I don't care about baseball, like they just want me to be excited about their excitement, like I'll have to be interested. But I don't have to like roll my eyes. Like, there's certainly times when you might be missing a bid because you just didn't recognize it as a bid. But in your heart of hearts. You want to respond to those bids. But like, I don't know, this morning, I got Egg McMuffin, and I got one for my husband. He didn't ask for one, but I always do when I'm getting one. And I came home, and he worked really late last night. So he was still asleep this morning when I got home for dropping the kids off. And our kids call the ham on eggplant muffins, hot meat. So they're like, I like those. I don't like the hot meat. Can I get one without hot meat? Like it's like we think that's funny, right? So I go into the bedroom and I'm like, I got you Egg McMuffins this time I got it with the hot meat. And his response was he was like on the phone doing something for work and he like put the phone down and what I like the hot meat so much. And it's like that, you know, if we were to like autopsy that invite, like that's a bid given and received like just a little joke that banters back but like, again, the observation about the bid being turned into isn't see they've mastered bids. It's like oh, these people enjoy each other. And sometimes if the enjoyment is missing, it could be missing because there's just been so many issues that you guys are having trouble getting back to that place because trust has been so broken and things have been so No harm, but you do really love each other. But that's a different scenario than these people no longer like each other. Yeah,

    Emily 20:07

    and I don't know if there's ever a context where it's okay to tell someone that they look like shit or that they look creepy, because even if someone's personality is off putting, you can address that, but you have to address the personality aspect. Well, that's

    KC 20:20

    also the part that like, when you talk about, like, knowing what's appropriate to do early on in this and the other, like, none of us are perfect with that. But in general, people are on their best behavior and the beginning of a relationship. So this is what they believe is their best behavior. And like we've all experienced, I think the issues of people are on their best behavior, and then you get down the road with them. And then like, they stopped making their best behavior, and the scary stuff comes out, and they're critical. And they're this and that, and it's whatever. And so like that happens, right? Like you don't usually see everybody's like, worst side on the first date. But that's kind of my point is like, if what your best behavior is like, what you're giving me out the gate is, I'm going to make a critical comment about your appearance, like, holy shit, that's your best. So like, how critical Are you going to be in six months when we're comfy with each other?

    Emily 21:12

    Yeah, exactly. And you could argue, I mean, this is different than your average relationship, because it's very compressed, they have a short amount of time. And while I'm not on Stacy's side to go back to Stacey and Izzy, I do understand being in a pressure cooker being like, okay, we're engaged. And we have three weeks to figure this out. So I'm going to be looking at everything you do under a microscope. And so I get that, but at the same time, like, just because you're in a time crunch, what people do, when they're stressed, is still who they are. So telling someone that they look weird, just because your stress is still not acceptable.

    KC 21:47

    Well, and some of this is like the emotional intelligence to be able to tell what you're feeling and why. Because, like, you might feel anxiety about I'm not sure if I'm attracted this person, I'm not sure if our lives line up, I'm not sure if like this person is going to be the right person, but recognizing that that's what you're feeling, and then being like, okay, so who's the appropriate person to discuss this with?

    Emily 22:11

    I had a question for you about something that was said in this was Milton's dad, on his wedding day, I thought was an interesting statement. He said, everything is good for the first two years during the honeymoon period. And then you deal with the rocky stuff. I've also heard the opposite, where oh, the first five years are the hardest because you work out your differences. And maybe there's no hard and fast rule. But I am interested in what you thought about that. Yeah.

    KC 22:40

    So there's this sort of like saying it gets thrown around where we say like marriage is hard. Marriage is hard. Marriage is hard work. And I think that it's easy to want to look at how I always say, like, I don't know, is the answer is like, I don't know if it is for everyone. It hasn't been for me. But I don't think that means that if you experience marriage is hard, it means you're doing anything wrong, necessarily. I think that life is hard that parts, and sometimes you don't have an opportunity to deal with certain hard parts about being human. And then until you get into a relationship with someone, and it kind of forces the issue. I think one of the reasons why my marriage hasn't been very hard is because of a few things. One, my partner and I are both in recovery for a long time. And so like we don't, we did a ton of therapy and a ton of our own growth as people we did it. There's a big emphasis on our programs about accountability, and taking accountability and making amends when you're wrong. And seeing the other person's side and exercise. It's like we did a lot of personal work before we got together, which I think smoothed a lot of things out for us. I also think that some of it is just luck, like our personalities are complementary in a way that is just luck. You know what I mean? What bothers us what doesn't bother us things like that. And then also, like, I think that we probably have a slight tendency to avoid conflict, which maybe three times out of five is a good thing for us. And then like two times out of five isn't right, because you let go of a lot of things. And that's good, because some things you should let go up. But then like, there's probably some things that you should drill down on that. You're like, Oh, I'm gonna let it go. But then you kind of get resentful or you get frustrated or whatever it builds. But I think what is really difficult is that, you know, sometimes you get together and it's the first time you're having to figure out things like how do I live with someone? And that's going to be different if you've ever lived with someone before. If you're trying to figure out, you know, how do I learn how to be vulnerable? Well, that's going to be difficult if this is the first time you're really drilling down on that how do I deal with conflict without being mean? Well, that's going to be difficult if if the majority of your life you haven't had as many opportunities to do that you haven't had blokes with friends in the same way, you haven't tried to work through that in the same way. So everybody's really different. And I think a lot of what is difficult about a marriage or a long term partnership is just difficulties in being human. And some people have their first experience with those issues when they get together and others don't. And there's also this really important nuance, where I think that there is a need to understand what is a reasonable amount of hardship, and what isn't, like being mistreated, being miserable. Every, like, life is hard, and your partnership should make it easier. But also, like, sometimes people have disabilities. And sometimes people relapse. And sometimes people have major medical issues. And that makes life hard. And that makes your marriage hard. And that read all of that. And I'm sorry, I'm like, I'm really getting to the point. But it's important that people know that if you don't look forward to seeing your partner, and in fact, you kind of dread it, and you find that there is like a level of mistreatment, a level of disdain a level of dismissiveness this level of, you can't get them to care enough to work on things. That's not what we mean by marriage is hard. We mean when two people are invested in the relationship and invested on working in the relationship, but we're two humans, and so we're going to knock heads and there's going to be misunderstandings, and there's going to be hurt feelings. Like that's hard. We're not talking about, I am pleading with my partner to care more.

    Emily 26:39

    That's the best explanation that I've ever heard about this. And you're summarizing a lot of disparate thoughts that I've had on this. And it's fine to the example of like, first, you know, living with someone for the first time and talking to about lack of compatibility, like I'm actually I'm half a year into living with a partner for the first time. And because we're like, very similar, we're both kind of glass half empty type of people, but it works for us. And so going into living together, we both focus so much on talking over our concerns that we actually once we moved in, like art experiences happened to be we're like cycling really well, like this is going to be thought and it's been smooth sailing and like not to say that we won't hit Roblox or whatever, but you have to dance with it. Like I, I kind of treat life like okay, it's crazy enough and throws wrenches at you, you know, left and right enough to know that that things are good now, and maybe I'll have to navigate tough situations. But there's something to be said for getting together with someone who has either done deep work on themselves or maybe hasn't, but is willing to go there. For you. It's recovery. And I actually saw a video you made about this the other day where you were like kind of joking cutting up, you're like find someone who's in recovery. And I just laughed because I was like saying, but for me, it was like big trauma and then had done a lot of therapy about it. That's what I went in almost as my number one thing. And that's what I found. And I'm like, oh my god, like, we're really able to speak the same language. And there's a lot of mines in the minefield that we've already like detonator or set like we've already like, disarmed ourselves. Like, we've already just figured this out, done a lot of homework just in navigating life, that there's not as much work to do now, that settling down to say, having done my 10,000 hours of past difficult lessons and relationships and everything.

    KC 28:46

    Okay, so on that subject, I have another red flag that kind of goes with that, which is like the exact same thing. It's like how somebody responds to you getting vulnerable to you talking about mistakes, things like that. So there's this other couple, and they're still in the pods. And it's Bucha. A is the man and Alia is the woman. And they have a great time. Yeah, yeah. And then at one point, she reveals to him that she cheated on in a relationship, and the relationship was two years prior. And she comes out with it. She says, I did this. And it's important for me to be honest with you, and yada, yada. And he's kind of like taken aback for a minute. And he starts to kind of, and you can tell like it really bothers him. Right? And so he even like challenges her a little bit with some of our explanations, because he's like, Well, how long ago was this? And why did you cheat? And she's like, Well, my needs weren't getting met. And you know, and she admits the entire time. Like, it was wrong of me. It was wrong of me to do. And he's like, Well, did you tell him? She's like, I didn't. Why didn't you tell him? Well, I didn't want to hurt him. Well, how long were you with him? If you cheated three months? Why didn't you just end the relationship? She's like, listen, I should have I didn't Want to hurt him by telling him and he's like, was it really about him? Or is it about you? Because then you would have had to sit through the backlash of your own behavior? And to her credit, she goes, Yeah, okay. Yeah, you're right. And so she's in this really vulnerable moment of like, I made this mistake it was two years ago, I want you to know, it was wrong of me. I don't ever want to do that again. And she even like, has grace for herself of like, I was in a hard spot. I didn't know what to do. And I know what I did the wrong thing. And she even says out loud, and I hate myself for it. And I want to play you his reaction made yourself be an honest person. You cheating on somebody, you being dishonest is about you. It's not about him. And I think he would have wanted to know about it. I cheated in a relationship, right? When I did cheat, it was when I was 18 years old and only kiss somebody else. So it's a little bit. So a little bit different. I would never do that to somebody else. And I think if I did, like I have the type of conscience where I would have to tell that person about it. Okay. I would put myself in that situation again, it would just be a no, I'm not.

    Emily 31:18

    How much longer were you with Matthew cheated on three months, three months. And you sleep with that guy another time. And

    it was just once, literally just once. That was my first and only time ever doing that in a relationship in your entire life in my entire life? Literally. I'm human, like I have my needs to. And I'm not saying that. Like it was selfish, but I have my needs to. And I'm supposed to just stay with somebody. No, no, you're

    breaking up with that person. I should just break up with that person.

    Unknown Speaker 32:01

    And I would do that now.

    Emily 32:12

    Yeah, well, thank you for being honest with me about that. You have more girlfriends or boyfriends. Okay.

    KC 32:19

    So I want to say a couple things out the gate. That is not how I personally would respond to someone being vulnerable with me telling them that I knew they had cheated on someone in the past. Because I think that it's an unkind way to respond. But that being said, That's not actually my issue, right? I don't necessarily have an issue with his judgement of her, because he might have a different value set, he might truly believe like, you know, because if somebody if some guy on a date were to tell me about something he did to his partner that I found so objectionable, and I felt like he was like, maybe making some excuses, I might have a strong reaction. Why would you do that? But that's about you. Like I wouldn't you know what I mean? Like, I might be concerned, I might be frustrated, I might kind of like, nail Him to the wall about it. And no

    Emily 33:10

    one wants to hear someone telling you the story of them cheating on a path, right.

    KC 33:14

    So, interestingly enough, although I don't like the way he responded, and I wouldn't continue in a relationship with someone who responded to me that way. I don't hold it against him for his having a very strong reaction for him having judgment on it, and even for the way that he pushed back on her, I don't think that's necessary, but whatever, right? However, here's my issue, he continues in the relationship with her. And to me, you get to do one or the other. Like, you either get to have this disdainful reaction and feeling about somebody's error, and grill them about it, and express that you are disgusted with the behavior and you can't believe and you would never do anything like that. Or you get to be in a relationship with that person. The fact that he continues in the relationship and still wants the relationship is a huge red flag for me, because what I felt like he did, it was like he just wanted to establish his moral superiority, so that he held the power in the relationship. And she should just be grateful that he deigns to continue to be with her even though she's such a fuckup. I

    Emily 34:27

    love that angle on it so much because you're allowed to put whatever parameters you want on a future relationship. You're allowed to say if I find out that someone has cheated in the past that is against what I believe I don't want to be with someone you're fully allowed. But if that's your belief, like do not pass go do not collect $200 like you, yeah, it's one or the other. And it was a moral superiority thing, especially in the context of okay if you're so against cheating, why have you done it in the past, like him positive Uh oh, I cheated. But it's okay. It's fully okay because I was 18. And I told her,

    KC 35:04

    you and I kissed it was just kissing, which by the way, we find out later that he cheated in relationships like three months ago, which

    Emily 35:10

    met people like that who are obsessed with cheating. They're always cheaters. And I had to learn that the hard way, like early on in dating, where I'm like, why it was accusing me of cheating, like, I would just say, and then oh, like they're thinking about it for a reason. But oh, this is totally okay. Because I was 18 You're This is completely not okay. Because was in this timeframe. And only two years ago, she said that, you know, at one point when she says, Oh, two years is a long time ago feels no, it's really not, though. Okay, like, then I wish you could have outlined like, what is the acceptable? Like, is there a statute of limitations for cheating, like is yours 10 years, so it's fine. And you know, the women when she went to them, I love that. I actually wrote this down, like one of them said, like, this is something that gives you clarity of how he reacts.

    KC 35:56

    Exactly. And it would be a red flag for me personally, just his whole reaction, even if he would be like, oh, I want to be I'd be like, no, because again, this is his best behavior is to be is to almost like emotionally Stonewall you to grill you to express disdain, in your moment of weakness. And again, the other thing is like, this didn't happen to him. Like if she cheated on him, like, of course, you know, like, these strong feelings, the strong feeling have to stay like that makes sense that he would get to express to her how he feels. But like, it's okay to feel those things. I personally think it was very unkind for him to say them, I think that you can keep those things to yourself and just not continue a relationship. But okay, whatever he said it, but like, if you say it, you don't get to then, like, put it as your trump card in the back. Like it just very, very red flag for me of like, a man that's going to react with anger and control and disdain to my moments of my mistakes and vulnerabilities.

    Emily 37:02

    Yeah, and if you look at the statistics on cheating, they're very high. And so if that's something you're against, that's really cutting down the dating pool, but also you're cutting yourself out of the equation, because you've cheated as well. So it is just about control. And I'd written this down as a red flag as well. But something else too in the follow up to this was when she came back to him and talked about how judged she felt and how hurt. And his first response was, did I say that though. And it was just that I was the most triggered of the whole season by this particular dynamic. This is so familiar to me. And my past, I was like, oh, it's the making her question herself. And while he's this angel, because all this is like, in the far rearview mirror for him,

    KC 37:50

    and we find out that one of the other girls on the show is actually his ex girlfriend. And he does not disclose that to like the very end. And Alia decides to leave. I mean, she ghosts leaves done. And he of course, makes some big deal about how horrible it was that he did that. But he continues to pursue her. And I feel like this is something that a lot of people struggle with, which is they're seeing behavior from a person that is hurting them that they feel uncomfortable about, but that person is still pursuing them. And they're still doing nice things for them. And they're still saying a lot of the right things. And it feels so good to be wanted. And it feels so good to be desired. That it can be really tempting to overlook that red flag.

    Emily 38:38

    Yeah. And for some people, they really get off on the continual asserting of control. Like for some people, it's like, oh, it's the thrill of the chase. But for some people it's not I mean, if it was about cheating, then he wouldn't have to or you know, like you said he would have walked away but it's about that continual like I'm going to take someone and I'm going to mold them to exactly what I want constantly because I'm going to turn this into my project basically Yeah, and

    KC 39:05

    I'm going to have the power like anytime we get to an argument this will probably be brought up she said she started on a level down from him and he has to prove herself and listen had she like not taken any accountability for it and been like it was fine and did it out like that i i thought it would have been more understandable to kind of be angry and be put off by it but it just anyone who contain maintains, like, disdain and meanness like in your vulnerability, especially if they weren't the one hurt. Like that's really the big key here. Alia

    Emily 39:36

    didn't have to tell him that fact. Just like ooh che could have maybe told her that Lydia the person is hugging Alia. She's sobbing is his ex. Maybe? Yeah. Well, I

    KC 39:48

    can't thank you enough for this conversation because I feel like it's exactly what I expected of like we're gonna talk about reality TV and how people actually on reality TV and it's going to open up some amazing conversations that like really matter about

    Emily 40:03

    how we do life. Yeah, we talked about the Venn diagram between both of our content. And I think on a very surface level, you might not see as much overlap, but it's so there's, we're really saying the same things in different settings. So just really looking at life and turning over these dynamics and seeing like, what we can pull out of them, and how that reflects in our own lives. So thank you for this conversation. This was lovely

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Christy Haussler