Dear Listeners,
“We want to inform you that this episode marks the end of our current season. We would like to take a break during the month of August to recharge and prepare exciting new content for you. We will be back with fresh episodes in September, filled with engaging discussions and insightful interviews. We appreciate your support and look forward to reconnecting with you soon”
-KC Davis
Codependency is one of those buzzwords often used in therapy and mental health around relationships. Today’s guest has provoked a lot of feedback by challenging people’s views on this subject. Join us for this intriguing conversation.
I’m joined by one of my favorite people on TikTok, Shahem Mclaurin, a social worker in Brooklyn, NY, with over 500,000 followers on social media. Shahem is self-described as a person who is “queer as hell, Black as hell, and loud as hell.” They use their platform to address a wide range of social and mental health issues impacting people of color, patriarchy-impacted people, and members of the LGBTQ+ community.
Show Highlights:
● How Shahem’s view of codependency has challenged the worldview of many people
● Why Shahem got a lot of blowback from his thoughts on codependency when he began to challenge popular worldviews
● Why we need to differentiate between attention-seeking and connection-seeking behaviors
● Why people get defensive when their “codependency identification” is challenged
● How the term codependency originated as part of popular therapeutic language
● How our culture sees having empathy for someone and expecting accountability from them as opposites that can’t both be true at the same time
● Thoughts on codependency, outside validation, connectivity, and feeling emotionally safe
● How to take a look at your unique journey “in the pool”
Resources and Links:
Connect with Shahem: TikTok and Instagram
Connect with KC: TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes
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KC Davis 0:05
Hello you sentient balls of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. This is a podcast about self care, mental health and just shit that I want to talk about in general. I'm here with genuinely one of my favorite tech talkers, Shaheen, and you are a licensed professional social worker and say a few words about yourself so that the audience can know who you are.
Shahem 0:25
So I'm Shaheen, I am a licensed social worker practicing therapist. I'm an LMS w. So this close to my See, I had to take a year. That's overall uncomplicated twisty windy stories, but I am originally from Baltimore. I'm stationed in Brooklyn, and I am queers. How on black as hell and loud as hell, nine times out of 10. So that is what you get from me. Yeah,
KC Davis 0:52
Well, thank you so much. I've really been looking forward to this, because we're gonna talk about codependency. And I saw you do a tech talk recently on it. And I was like, I have thoughts. And I know you have thoughts. And that is really all this podcast is, is finding people that have like capital T thoughts on things that are sort of like mine, and then bringing them on and then talking about it. So what just give me your like, one minute download as to like, why the word codependency makes your assets.
Shahem 1:21
So I got a lot of blowback from that, like people were so upset, but it was fine. Because
KC Davis 1:27
Did you really?
Shahem 1:28
I did, and, you know, I anticipate it when you challenge people's worldviews, I find that that word is so overused, and often like it villainized as people's desire to connect to other people, because a lot of the times what is at the root of codependency is like completely swept under the rug, right. And there's people who are seeking secure and safe connections. And especially in a world where like hyper individualism is pushed, like to the forefront, like encourages people to further disconnect from the reality of like seeking connections and safe connections with other people, building community with others in having grace, conflict resolution, and all of the things with people. And I think, like one of the reasons why people feel so strongly about it is because a lot of us like one of pathologizing away our desire to connect to other people and to be human beings in the social. So yeah, I find that the word is overused, I find that people like often use that, like the term codependency to, like dismiss people's desire for connectivity. And I think like in our society, in our specific context, it like encourages people to disconnect from people around them, which is like, connected to so many larger issues that we face as a society. And it just, it really does make my assets. That part, right.
KC Davis 2:58
I feel like it's similar to like the phrase, like attention seeking, where it's not that there isn't certain behavior that's maybe like not working for you that you would like to work on. But it's like you said, like it demonizes the underlying desire, and then that person ends up like hating themselves for this desire.
Shahem 3:21
Let me say this, you are also one of my favorite creators, like literally, I'm honored to be here. I saw your video when you talked about attention seeking versus connection seeking. And I was just like, Thank you like that is the perfect way to describe that because a lot of the times, kids specifically, you know, worked in foster care, the juvenile justice system, and I am like no stranger to the phrase, attention seeking a lot of children often dismiss their needs are often dismissed as seeking attention, as opposed to like the acknowledgement that these children are like they are lacking connectivity. And instead of like us focusing on how we can solve that issue, which is connected to again, these larger social problems, like loneliness is systemic. And instead of addressing these issues, we are reactionary, and we attack the effect and not the cause, like, but that is like, again, connected to so many larger issues in this context, because we never really addressed the root of the issue. We just disappear, we pathologize and dismiss, that is something that makes my assets.
KC Davis 4:39
And I think one of the reasons why it gets so much blowback is because and this is true of a lot of like pop psychology terms or like psychological terms in general, is that you have people who have a genuine struggle or like a genuine behavior that's neither not working for them or it's destructive for them or or whatever. Are and they find a term that they feel like the meaning of that term. It helps them like move through whatever they're going through, it helps them identify what's going on. It helps them like work through something. And then they feel very defensive when someone like comes for that term. And I'm thinking specifically of like, so a lot of my background is in addiction, like I had a really severe addiction. And I went through a long rehab, and then I worked on addiction my whole career. So, you know, it's interesting, like, we've been talking about, like teachers and disabled students a lot on my tech talk right now. And everyone's like, well, you've never taught but you would be amazed the similarities between working in addiction and like observing what's happening, like on teacher talk right now. And there's also I think, a lot of similarities with working with foster kids, because it's this because mine were always young adults, it was always like, kids in their early 20s, that had addiction issues, and all the same stuff about like, are they like, they're manipulative, they are dishonest, they are attention seeking. They are like all of these things that really get slapped on them. And codependent was one really big one specifically for the like the women that would come through. And in my addiction, my mother, like really struggled with what she now believes to be like enabling behaviors. And she went through this process of like, learning boundaries and learning that like, hey, regardless of what my daughter chooses to do, like, I am my own person, and like, I can have joy in life, even if she's not like, I can't save her, but I can be there for her and all these things. But like, the books like my, these core memories of my mom, and these, like melody Beatty books, on codependency, like in her like little bedside, write her little, and every day, just like her little codependency books, and they really helped her. And I think that that's why like, people can get really defensive because it's like, okay, we're not coming for your journey. Like, if that word has done something for you, that's great. But like for every person that was like, helped by that word, like, it wasn't the word that helped you. And then there's like other people who are not helped by it. And so like, we're not taking that journey away from you, if like, that's an identification that has helped you. But I totally agree with you that sometimes a term and maybe at one point, it was a helpful term like, well, first of all, I think the term originated in addiction. And it was like, akin to the word co addict. And literally codependent was specifically like you had the person who was dependent on alcohol. And then what they found was that they were seeing that like the Dine, obviously, like, there's a lot of dynamics that you can recognize in addiction, like over and over and over, like, Oh, these all seem to be similar, like, regardless of where these people are in the demographic, you know, bap, but what they found was, and it was obviously, mostly men that they were treating, like when this first started, their wives also seemed to exhibit similar patterns of dysfunction. And so the word codependent came about not because you're dependent on another person, but it was like this person's up dependent on alcohol. And this is the CO dependent like, it was describing a dynamic between two people, right? Where like, one is in this like chaos of addiction where they're literally like circling the drain going down, and the other person is in that dynamic with them. And they're like creating this like kind of sick feedback loop where they're both going down together. And so she was the CO dependent and that's the term how it started and then it kind of got hijacked and got like a lot of terms got so pop psychology EAD that now, you know, if my boyfriend isn't calling me back, and I'm upset about it? Well, I'm just being codependent.
Shahem 8:51
That is a perfect example of what I mean when I say people overuse it. But I think you are pointing out something that is so important is the way that language is CO opted. It happens so often. And I'm going to say the next this next part, I know every time I say this around the therapist is like a narcissistic personality disorder. The way people talk about narcissism, online narcissistic abuse, and I'm not here to say like narcissistic abuse is not a real experience. And some people really do get a lot from talking about like narcissism, but a lot of people do also overuse the terminology and lean heavily on like one, I just always careful about talking about it because people get really up in arms about this, but just basically like villainizing entire personality clusters of personality disorders, and like basically dehumanizing other people and slapping the label on pretty much anybody that they come across, who is an asshole in one instance to them and it is I think like that is like a really like the biggest that I see once I talk by pretty frequently, but like, the way that people take language, and yes, it does help them in their journey, which is a beautiful thing, like, but they take it and they like apply it broadly across the board. And I think a lot of language gets like eaten up into this like larger machine that is like, frankly violent, and it's chews people up and spits them out, we live in a very carceral society where we are quick to other people and to like disappear people whenever they do things that are deemed societally unacceptable. And I think the way that we use a lot of this mental health language is a part of that, like it is often co opted into the machine. Like when I worked in the juvenile justice system, attention seeking behavior was like the most commonly used phrases to describe children who were frankly, like, behaving like kids were hurt, because he's a lot of these kids have been in the system for years. And like, instead of like connection seeking, like, you know, attention seeking, like, I think like the language is all a part of like this larger machine that seeks to like exploit other and you know, basically, like, disappear people. And I think that's why when we do bring up things like you know, maybe not attention seeking, or maybe codependency is a little bit of a strong choice of words for you to be seeking connection from your partner, that we get pushed back. But I do think it's important to keep pushing back on these narratives, because this is how the language becomes co opted. And not that, you know, I think language is that because I'm actually going to be talking about this probably a little bit later. But like language is so important. language as a tool is essential. Having the words to put your experience in can make it easier for you to navigate your experience. It makes it easier to make decisions. Like when you have therapeutic language like a you can understand if someone is like for example, gaslighting you, and you are able to call that out. It's really important. It's like these tools are necessary. But like any other tool, it can be used for good or bad. Or it can be because tools are just tools.
KC Davis 12:22
And there's like a bell curve of it. Right? Like, okay, nobody knows what gaslight is. And then it's like we learn what it is. And then it's like the really empowering word. And the more it's used, and the more it's normalized, the more helpful it is to identify things. And then it hits like a Zenith where it gives us so much that now it becomes really watered down and like it's like helpfulness takes a nosedive. And then we have to kind of look back and go, okay, like, it doesn't just mean everything. And I think that's the point at which a lot of these like terms go from psychology to pop psychology, where there's like this short window of use, yes, trauma, bonding, trauma dumping, like all those things. And I have an interesting question about the pathologizing thing. But let me take a short break here. Okay, so one of the things you mentioned, especially narcissistic personality disorder, I had this thought where there's two interesting things happening at the same time. So like, let's take that term, or even like borderline personality disorder. What's interesting about that is that I see people using that term to pathologize like to demonize someone like to take what's a, frankly, a pretty normal human response to deep, deep trauma, and calling it you know, something that is a mental illness. And it's like pathologizing, but then I see people taking the term and doing the opposite, where it's like, they're trying to use it to say, Hey, I'm not evil, I have this disorder. And so you can't be angry about it, you have to have empathy for it, you have to have, and it's so interesting to me how the use of the disorder language, like does both at the same time, and I and it's like, oh, I don't know what to do with that. Because on the one hand, we can't pathologize it too much. But on the other hand, it's like, but they're both making the same mistake, which is, this is this is a, I don't know, I can't stand personality disorders because people don't understand the difference between the personality disorders and other disorders because like, there are some disorders in psychology and this is same in medical, whatever, but like, where we see a cluster of symptoms, and that tells us the cause, right? Like if we say someone has diabetes, like we see the symptoms, the blood sugar or that the other and because we realize that that's diabetes, we know the cause we quite literally know what's causing those symptoms and it is, you know, the stuff happening In their liver, pancreas kind of stuff. And then there's other ones, right? Like, okay, you have the flu? Well, we saw the symptoms. And now we know you have the flu. And literally the flu is the cause. It's a virus that came in and it did XYZ. But there are other types of disorders or even like medical ones, where we say like, Okay, you have chronic fatigue syndrome, we have no idea what causes that. We don't know whether there are multiple causes, or one cause we just know that there are people showing up with these clusters of symptoms. And they're showing up often enough that were clear that it is something and so people I don't think understand that, like when you talk about DSM disorders, like there are some of those that, like when we say you have Bipolar, we know that something is going on, that's causing the bipolar in your brain. Like it's not trauma, it's not like there might have been an environmental flip, right. But it is something in the chemistry of our brain, or OCD. Like there's something happening in the brain that's causing all those symptoms. And I don't think people realize that personality disorders are not like that, like there is not like a gene that causes borderline personality disorder, or narcissistic personality disorder. Like, that's not what we're saying. We're just saying that, like, there have been so many assholes that have showed up with this very specific constellation of symptoms, that it is helpful for us to call it something, because then we can better treat it because we can know that like, if this works with that person, it might work with other similar, like personality profiles. And I think that becomes really sticky for people because it's like, it's not quite as simple as like, I don't know, man, I've just got narcissistic personality disorder. So like, we don't want to demonize anyone, even if it is something but it's like, well,
Shahem 16:55
Not quite the same. And I think like you bring up a like a really important point. I think it's an overarching thing that like, this is real, it really grinds my gears, it pisses me off when it comes to conversations around mental health. And I think like it speaks to the context that we live within the current state of society. But a lot of people try to operate in extremes. And like, they don't like to find balance within all of these conversations. And I like to tell people all the time, like you have the one thing about like mental health, no matter which side you are talking about, like you need to have balance, like there is a point where it's like, you have to hold yourself accountable for your actions, having any disorder or any like, it's not, like if you are someone who can account for their, like, if you're oriented to this reality, you can account for your actions, and you have to like, you know, there are consequences for actions, you know, and but there is a balance, because there are people who have like, disordered thinking people do deserve, like to be able to experience, you know, life and to react to trauma without being thrown away. You know, there is space for empathy. And there is like, it's just a balancing act. I think.
KC Davis 18:08
I'm glad you said the oriented to reality part. Yeah. Because like we at some point, we have to admit that someone experiencing psychosis is different than someone who has a personality disorder. Yeah, like there's a different level of accountability there.
Shahem 18:24
Yeah, like, if you're not even like, you know, if you're not oriented, like time place, like all that, like, if you aren't oriented, you're not playing with the same like deck of cards as everyone else. So like, I think it is just like, again, it's that balance, like being able to balance which being able to balance like how to, like, have people within community in society, without necessarily feeling the need to throw everybody away who has any defaults, or defects. But I think a large part of that goes back to systemic issues where a lot of frankly, if you ask me, I think personality disorders, a lot of them can be resolved if we, like adjusted the way that we operate as a society. Like trauma is systemic, like, think of how a lot of housewives in the 1950s were like, traumatized, deeply traumatized, by the way that their lives were set up because of the way systemically they didn't have the same options, as a lot of women do now, but even still, like you know, we have a lot of systemic issues that women go up against which create a lot of dysfunction and the same goes across the board for a lot of people like no matter the identity. I also am a huge like proponent of like disability theory, I think society disabled people. And I think like if we function better as a society, a lot of the issues that we face can be shifted, but there are there is also again, balance like the genetic components like some people actually have like mental health, mental health have things that they have to go up against and face that are genetic, like, like, you know, if you are you have Bipolar, like there's a genetic predisposition to it. And like there's just a balancing act. And I think one of the issues comes when people try to place everything on the same like plane, when it's a matrix, it's not like just the plane is a matrix, like there are different factors that contribute to everything. And I think when we strip ourselves of the nuance, and we don't approach it with nuanced thinking, which often happens when things are watered down through pop psychology, like it really does more of a disservice than it does a service.
KC Davis 20:46
And I think people are probably wondering, like, What the hell does all this have to do with codependency, but I think it is really connected. Because I think that whole conversation, like it revolves around this, this thing we have in our culture, where you can either have empathy for someone, or you can expect accountability from them. Like we see those as opposite, right. And so I think people who are struggling, they feel alone and they desire connection, and they desire allowed to be human. And so what that comes out as like, Hey, this is a disorder have empathy for me, don't demonize me. And that's just that same like kind of cry of the heart of like, Don't put me out. And but then the opposite of it, which is like when people get really harmed by people, and they're going, No, I'm not going to just excuse that by going, Oh, I feel so sorry for you, you've abused people. And people truly can't imagine a world where empathy and accountability happen in the same place. And I think that that is one of the things that leads to what we call codependency, right, I end up in a relationship with someone, I don't feel like I have worthiness outside of somebody else's value of me. And so I there's this person, and so if that person is harming me in some way, I don't know how to hold that in a space, right. And so I ended up thinking, Well, I have to have empathy for them, I have to have empathy for them, I have to have empathy for them. And I don't expect accountability and my own self worth is so degraded, that I find myself in a dynamic where I continue to run back to either the same person or the same types of people that I need connection so badly, but then when I get that connection, it further harms me. And that makes me need it more. And we kind of end up like there. There is something happening there. And it kind of comes back to boundaries, which is another thing that I think we get wrong with boundaries.
Shahem 22:48
Oh, my goodness, the hyper focus on boundaries, often when I love talking about boundaries, because I do boundaries are very important, like for community. But a lot of the ways that we talk about boundaries in this mental health space that we all exist within is it hyper focuses on like, individual, like hyper individualism, like I said before, like the same problem with codependency like it tries to like push people further to isolate and to sever connections with people around them, as opposed to like, like, you know, and you know, of course, there are the people who are trained resolve clinicians who actually talk about it in a way that I think is like really healthy and helpful. And then there are the people who like try and push people further towards isolation and disconnecting from people around them. And I think there's a lot that we get wrong as a society. And I think that's why conversations like this do matter, though, because they're like, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, Wow, you really did shift my, my perspective with thinking on this because I didn't think of it like that. And I think it's important for us to just keep pushing the space don't get me started on carcere ality in a way that, you know, therapists are allowed to exist on the online space. But I'm like, a really big advocate for us, like, are people who are professionals like sharing their expertise online, because it is like pretty much part of our duties at this point to combat a lot of like, the misinformation and disinformation that is easily spread online, just around language overall, but like, even things like you know, something as simple as trauma dumping, like, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people use the term trauma dumping. I can't tell you how many times I've had clients, like patients of mine come to me and say like, I'm sorry, I don't want to trauma. And I have to let them know your therapist. Like you're actually supposed to talk about your drama like that's what I'm here for, like you're not trauma dumping, because you're sharing your experience because a lot of the language that is used and the space is like, literally used to push people towards isolation. And yeah, that was a long winded way to say I agree. And yeah, it's a mess, the way we cover a lot of these things, but we got to keep talking.
KC Davis 25:13
Okay, so let's do this, we're gonna take a quick break and come back. Okay, so I want to move on to talking about like, what would be a better way? Because I have thoughts, I know you have thoughts of talking about what people are trying to talk about when they say codependency because there's like, separate different ways. So I want to give you kind of an example of something that I experienced that I used to identify as codependency when I was young. And then you put your therapist hat on and tell me like, how do you think this would be better conceptualized for someone. So back when I was using, I felt just as addicted to people as I did the substances. And there's one specific memory that has always sort of been seared in my head, which it was like a Saturday night. And I was like, Okay, I got it. And I had like a group of friends. And it was a large group. So like, sometimes some of them were here, some of them were there, some of them were all together, or whatever. And I was calling around trying to figure out like, where's the get together? Like, what are people doing? Like, where's the event or the thing that I can go and be a part of, and part of what I loved about using drugs is I went from like walking into a room insecure to walking into a room where everybody stopped and looked up and went, Hey, like, there she is, and I knew what to do. And I knew what was expected. And I, I knew how to inhabit the identity of this like subculture I was living in and and so I'm Saturday night, and I'm calling around, and no one's picking up the phone. And I can't figure out like, is anyone doing anything? And if so, where are they? And and, and how can I go be apart? And no one's ignoring me? It wasn't like, Oh, my friends are hanging out. Without me. It was just that, you know, I would get someone on the phone. They'd say, Oh, I'm not doing anything tonight. And then somebody wouldn't answer and then somebody wouldn't answer. And then somebody wasn't doing anything. And the more I called the more frantic I felt, because like I couldn't find people to go be with. And it felt as desperate as like calling around for a fix. And nobody has anything. And I'm calling and I'm calling and I'm calling and I get to like the last person I know to call, and nobody's out doing anything. And I literally collapse on the ground and just start hyperventilating and crying and screaming, because I feel like my chest is going to cave in, if I can't go be with these people and experience that feeling of okayness. And so that was the experience that early on was like, Oh, I'm codependent. But so if you had a client that came to you with that experience, like what better language or like view could you give them to understand that experience?
Shahem 27:58
Well, first, I'm so sorry, that is a part of your experience. That sounds like that was really tough. And I can only imagine, I'm sorry that you had to experience I know, going through stuff like that is not easy. But as far as I'm concerned, it sounds just like how we were just talking about like, it sounds like you want to connectivity like you want it to feel connected to a community of people around you. And you didn't feel that in that moment. And I think even beyond that, I would start personally to explore like exactly why it is that you feel so disconnected despite you having these relationships, and people you should you can call up because that doesn't come from just like nowhere. I think that is part of the experience of wanting to be connected. But if you are in a setting where you are surrounded by people, and you don't feel connected to the people, unless you are physically around them, or you're out and you're busy, why do you feel like you need to be connected to people or being being out in order to be connected? Why are you driven by this, like, outside validation because I don't even know like it would require so much compensation which is another sidebar when people ask me for advice, which is why I do not give out advice on tick tock like I travel this avoid it because it's like, I wouldn't eat so much context. But this is a point of exploration, which is why I'm like jumping, leaping directly to codependency as like a term to just like stamp it. Sometimes it does a disservice because there's so much you can explore as to why it is like that feeling was there to begin with. We are human beings, right how we are taught to connect to other people. When we are young, have huge, you know, attachment theory versus how we are taught like, when we're young to like connect to other people. It follows us for a while it can change over time. But part of that change if the way we are connected to people is is unhealthy, where we feel like we can't function if we're not connected to other people at all times. Like, we have to explore what where that comes from. Right. And that could be a number of things like, you know, some people do have, like, genetic predispositions to mental health concerns and things that prevent them from being able to like exist without feeling that connectivity, some people like that's trauma, like, it is just a point of exploration, if you ask me, and that is the part, the point where I would start to explore a little bit further, and not just like, slap a label on it.
KC Davis 30:34
Yeah, cuz that label has become the end of the journey. You know, I mean, it's like, you hear that you're like, oh, codependency is like, Okay, we have a diagnosis. Let's move on. But here's the thing in all my years, nobody has ever said what you just said to me, specifically, like literally 20 However, many years later, I'm having this aha moment when you said, you were connected to people like deeply that loved you, that you loved, that welcomed you that appreciated you. Why is it that there's no emotional permanence? Because my head went right to, like, Yes, I know, I need connection. But like, I should be able to be okay on a Friday night, once in a while being alone. But when you said, first of all, like that such a human need, like there's nothing wrong with you for needing that connection. But what's interesting is that you had it, but you couldn't experience it unless you were physically with those people. And I think that that's really what the heart of this conversation is about is that like, when you go with, well, you shouldn't be healthy, you should be a person who's Okay, not always having outside validation. Like we go right to like, what's wrong with it? Instead of what's right. Like, there are things in you functioning normally, which is like you need connection. But there's something that has like gotten in the way of your ability to experience like, in my case, like the connection you actually have. And you said, like, that becomes the beginning of a journey and the opening of a journey that has a lot less shame than you know, when I went to rehab, and they gave me my first treatment assignment about codependency. And it was like list the seven ways you're codependent. And why do you need the validation of others, and it pushes it, it also says, like, you say this really well, where it's like, no one's saying that, like, that's not a painful place to be. And that if we were to have to use the term slightly dysfunctional, and that it's just not working for me. But when I went through rehab, when we worked on my codependency in quotation marks, it presented the answer to that as just being my own island, never needing the validation of other people never needing to have to be around. And so that just puts me right into like, this black and white shame place, where I feel ashamed of myself if I can't have my own self esteem. And I feel okay with myself if I can, but I'm never gonna get there. If the whole journey is this. Well, I just want to be okay with myself. So I want to do the healthy thing instead of like, actually having a healing journey. And I think that's like the key to the issue is when we talk about pathologizing something versus understanding that like, and I used to call this I had a podcast recently with someone where we talked about this idea of like, first person experience versus third person experience, where when I got into the mental health world really young, what quickly happened was this dichotomy of if you're healthy, that's good, and you're worthy. And if you're unhealthy and dysfunctional and codependent like that's not. And so when you do things in this category, you feel shame, because you're not good enough. But when you're making therapeutic progress, you are good enough. And everything you experience is from this like third person point of view, where there's like this invisible audience saying, Good, now you're doing good. Now you're doing good, as opposed to first person experiences where like, Wouldn't it be nice to for a Saturday night where I could make a cup of coffee, or watch a movie by myself and still enjoy feeling connected and knowing that I'm loved, like that experience is rewarding in and of itself. It doesn't have to have this extra layer of and now I'm healthy and I feel like I'm worthy.
Shahem 34:14
Exactly. It is just about like being able to feel emotionally like safe, if you ask me. And also, I just cannot in this conversation without saying like, you cannot heal in isolation. That is just like a number one thing. We are a social species. We need other people. We need relationships, frankly, like I like one thing I love talking to when I work with foster kids. I would ask them like, you know, who who is responsible for these lights being on maybe like, oh, we have a bill. Yeah, but like there's also somebody who runs the electricity plant. Like there are people who like build the wiring like we are a social species like we are all connected in ways where we don't even know if we are connected in those ways. Like we have to connect to other people for other things too, right. And that includes like, mental health and mental wellness, like you need other people. And that's okay. And a lot of the times I will say this, because I also have to save us before we close. But, you know, as someone who was recently trained in EMDR, like, I can say, like one of the things that I worked through, because in the training they make you go through and process your own trauma. One of the things that I worked through was like my connectivity to my family, because in a lot of ways people will say I was codependent because I was like seeking connection from family. But when I was able to process and metabolize certain traumas I recognized like, you know, like, I just like literally had trauma that was not metabolized. And sometimes it is that simple. Sometimes it's not. In fact, I would say none of that is simple. It's all very complex. But that's the thing, right? Like not settling for, like these very broad, very, sometimes shaming is shameful, like terms, and language, because it can literally stop you or getting away from exploring yourself, your journey, your story, like what is at the root, and like helping yourself come to a space where you feel safe, because that's at the end of the day, you feeling safe, and connected and tethered and present and all the things because that's ultimately what I think a lot of us want.
KC Davis 36:33
Well, and if your codependency becomes like the period before the exploration, because I can totally see if I were to come to you and tell that same story. But the difference would be like, I keep like I find a group and then they go away, where like you would be able to therapist to go, hey, the issue is you don't have a community. And like not having a community and feeling that desperation is a completely different journey and solution than someone that comes and goes, I have a community, they really liked me, but I feel desperate, if I'm not physically with them. Like that's a totally different way of exploring. And it's also very different than someone coming to you and saying, there's this one particular person who is abusive to me, or toxic to me or mistreats. Me, and I can't quit them. Like that's also an codependency I think dangerously lumps, all of these different issues together with this one stamp of something's wrong with you go figure it out instead of, you know, realizing like there are a lot of different ways that could show up and different ways to explore that. And one of the things for me, I can't remember which therapist I was like working under, when we were talking about addiction, specifically around this idea of like, enabling someone or not having boundaries with someone. And they were the first person I heard talk about how like codependency is not helpful term. And the terms that she used when working with couples and families where there's like a dyad, or a triad of like somebody with, you know, either mental health or addiction or even toxic behavior. As she said, like, throw away the word codependency, I want to talk about looking at this relationship, like where are the areas where you might be over functioning, and where are the areas where you might be under functioning. And that, to me was such a more helpful way of thinking about it, because she would address it the person that was like, quote, The identified patient. And we would talk about how like, in terms of community, like you have obligations to community, and you have privileges from community, and you will occasionally get someone who wants to enjoy all the privileges of community, but consistently under functions when it comes to meeting the obligations of community or the responsibility of community. So whether it's family or community or friends or whatever. And oftentimes, another person in response to that person's under functioning will then begin to over function. So I'll just do things for them. I'll rescue them from their emotions, I'll pay those bills for them, I'll do that. And it was such an easier way of looking at so it wasn't this person's a piece of shit and you're codependent.
Shahem 39:16
Yeah, I think like the more we talk about this stuff, the more it spreads and gets out there and the more people can like probe, hopefully somebody will hear this and they will think to themselves, like maybe I should explore a little bit further. Just slap a label on myself. Because I think one thing that you highlighted that is really important is like that shame that comes with like feeling like the problem is you. It really impacts like your ability to function overall. And I think it's important to be able to question and like give yourself grace through it when when you know like that these things can come from so many different like aspects and avenues and you can hold yourself accountable while also holding empathy for yourself. Like that makes it a lot easier.
KC Davis 40:04
I feel like it's like thinking of the difference between seeing your mental health journey for lack of a better term or your healing, you can see it as a lap pool, like an Olympic sized lap pool, where it's how far am I going? How fast am I going? Am I going in the right direction? And how am I going in comparison to the people in the other lanes, right? Like, you can visualize it that way. And that's what where a lot of that shame comes in. Because I'm not moving as fast as everyone else. I'm not moving as fast as I should be. I'm not winning. I'm not doing the correct strokes. I'm not going in the right direction. I'm not moving, you know, all of these things, versus seeing it as like a resort pool with a beach entry. Right? It's like, you can wait in you can sit in the shallows for a while you can get deeper, but you can be deeper off to the left, you could be deeper off to the right you can you know, there's a waterslide that maybe unbeknownst to us circumstances just plunged your ass right into the deep end, right? Like, it's just a so much like, let's just wait into this pool. And everyone's doing something different. But it's not this like lap pool where like, you're good if and you're bad. If it's like we're just getting in the pool, like you might have a toe and you might have your whole body and you might be and what's funny is like you might be up to your neck, because you're standing in the deep end of the waters up to your neck or you might be in the shallow end, but you're willing to lay down up to your neck.
Shahem 41:27
What a beautiful analogy, like,
KC Davis 41:29
thank you. It just came to me.
Shahem 41:32
That was actually really, really good. I might have to use that. Really good. Yeah. I do have a session at 10. I don't know.
KC Davis 41:41
Well, we'll let you go. But can you tell everybody where they can find you if they want to follow you?
Shahem 41:46
Yes, I can be found at five h a h e m, on Tiktok and Instagram. And yeah, that's pretty much it. It's such a beautiful conversation. And I hope that somebody out here is questioning the term and the usage of the term codependency and understanding that your journey is important and exploring yourself is important. And no matter what, you deserve to feel safe. Yeah,
KC Davis 42:15
thank you. And we'll put that in the show notes for anybody who wants to link and thank you so much again, and I hope you come back and we can have more conversations about other things.