As Thanksgiving is just around the corner, gratitude is an important topic. It is important to offer a more nuanced perspective, because gratitude can be complicated and can look very different for different people. Gratitude goes beyond the simple phrase, “Just be grateful.” In today’s Part 1 of two episodes, we want to give people a brave place to let their true feelings be what they are, regardless of others’ expectations. How do we practice gratitude in a way that isn’t toxic positivity but still validates our feelings and raises our quality of life? My friend, Christine Koh, is here to contribute to the discussion. She is a speaker, creative consultant, author of Minimalist Parenting, and the podcast co-host of Edit Your Life. Join us!
Show Highlights:
● How we define gratitude–it doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone!
● How gratitude can be an embracing the joy that is random in life–just as suffering is
● How we define toxic positivity–and how it relates to motherhood
● Why we, as a society, aren’t very good at sitting with uncomfortable emotions and pain
● How Christine’s background and Asian heritage inform her view of toxic positivity
● How spiritual bypassing relates to toxic positivity in not allowing feelings to be processed and explored
● Why Christine is a fan of cognitive reframing–and how she uses this practical exercise to “flip the script”
● Why we have to give voice to our suffering to process the feelings and move toward growth
● How gratitude is an emotional muscle that we have to flex in our own ways
● Christine’s advice to parents about teaching gratitude while not pushing toxic positivity on our kids
● Why it is important for parents to model a wide range of emotions in front of our kids
Resources and Links:
Connect with Christine Koh: Website, Podcast, and Minimalist Parenting book
Connect with KC: Website, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Get KC’s book, How to Keep House While Drowning
We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: www.strugglecare.com/promo-codes.
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KC 0:05
Hello you sentient ball of stardust. Welcome to struggle care. I'm your host, Casey Davis. And today is an exciting part one of a two part series. I'm going to be with Christine CO, who was a music and brain scientist turned multimedia creative. She spent a decade in academia during which time she was awarded a prestigious fellowship from the National Institute of Health to fund her PhD research at Queen's University and joint appointment postdoctoral fellowship at Massachusetts General Hospital, Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Christina was about to become a professor when she decided to hang up her academic spurs in favor of more flexible and independent ventures. She's an award winning author, she wrote minimalist parenting, and she's a podcaster. She's the host of edit your life. She's also a creative director and strategist. And we're going to be talking about gratitude, toxic positivity, and how we handle hard times. So the first part of this episode is going to be right here on struggle care. And why did I say it that way right here on struggle care. And the second part of the episode is going to be over on edit your life. So be sure and hop over there when you can and hear part two. Okay, so Christine, thank you for being here.
Christine Koh 1:17
I'm so excited to talk to you. So I love your show. And we're both part of analyst and I just felt like it was time for us to come together on the mic. Absolutely.
KC 1:26
And I feel like this is like the perfect time to be talking about this. Because going into like you're in the US like Thanksgiving, and then Christmas like it's very much a season where people talk about gratitude. And there's this expectation that everyone is supposed to be excited and grateful about the holidays. And so I thought this was like a good it's were kind of like perfect timing.
Christine Koh 1:50
I think so. And I think it's so important to offer a more nuanced perspective to gratitude. I think it sounds like a simple thing. Like, oh, just be grateful, articulate what you're grateful for all will be well, and obviously it's so complicated. I mean, at the time that we're recording, we're a little ways out from the holidays. But I've been having some anxiety, just even thinking forward about people's expectations and wanting to stay true to my values, yet also not wanting to hurt people's feelings. I mean, there's so much wrapped up in this time of year. So I like to think of these two episodes, we're going to record together as a way to give people kind of a brave place to let their feelings be what they are, and dig in with us. And
KC 2:37
I'm super excited about the idea of having this nuanced conversation where we address the issues with like toxic positivity. And we don't like throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to gratitude. Like, I feel like we sometimes it's like toxic positivity is such a problem that we kind of like swing to the whole other side and say like, okay, like we need to talk about real stuff and hard stuff and have those feelings. And sometimes I think what's get what gets lost in that conversation is like, Well, is there any benefit to gratitude? And if there is like, how do we practice that in a way that isn't toxic positivity, but does make our life better, and doesn't invalidate what we're feeling? But does raise our quality of life? Like, I'm excited to get into this conversation?
Christine Koh 3:28
Mm hmm. Absolutely. I think I mean, we are complex mammals. That's something I often refer to. And I, it's a little puzzling to me why it's even an issue that people feel like we can't be multiple things. And, you know, I'm coming out of thankfully, a very, very difficult season of a couple year long season. And one of the things that I had to tap into often, mostly because I felt like I was kind of losing my mind, like how can I be in the depths of despair, or one moment, and then like really joyful about something the next moment, and I kept thinking about, you know, we are as humans, we have a unique capacity to hold both difficult painful things, as well as tap into good positive things. And that's a good thing. We need to be full dimensional people. So really excited to talk about this, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts about toxic positivity. I know you have a lot of that. And I think that's just gonna be a really good element to this conversation.
KC 4:27
Well, I thought we would start I had like a thought out of nowhere, but like, I think it'd be helpful to talk about like a good definition for gratitude.
Christine Koh 4:35
Yeah, I think if I had to just do one off the top of my head, which is right now, I would say it is figuring out a practice that works for you identifying that everybody's baseline is going to be a little different about simple ways that you can tap into appreciation for the moments that matter to you light you up, give you a little energy And then there's this whole side thing of while still acknowledging where you are in life. But I really feel like it's trying to find ways that work for you. Because there is no one size fits all solution, there can be a lot of suggestions about things that will help. And I know on the edit your life episode, we'll talk a bunch about tactics that we found useful over the years. But I just want to emphasize that there's going to be a little trial and error, I think, for people, and that's a good and natural part of the process. Yeah,
KC 5:26
I've been thinking a lot about like a working definition. And I think, for me, what I've come sort of rattling around this idea of like, it's the amplification of authentic joy.
Christine Koh 5:37
Oh, I love that that's better than let's use that that was framed beautifully. Well,
KC 5:42
and I because I was thinking about it this morning. And I was like, you know, part of this, like, we can't really talk about gratitude, without talking about joy. Because, you know, that we have to talk about, like, how do we begin to cultivate and recognize those like small moments of joy. And I feel like joy is the experience. And gratitude is the reflection, right? Like, think about something really small, right? Like I love when it rains. And I was sitting on my back porch this morning. And I like having a cup of coffee and looking at the rain, and like that brings me joy. But there's this like, extra layer, almost like meta layer of taking that beat to like, consciously recognize this is joyful, and then also have that reflection of, I'm really grateful, I read this really interesting article, talking about trying to define gratitude. And they were specifically talking about gratitude and relationships, like, Oh, I'm grateful for you. But they had this really interesting definition where they talked about like, gratitude is the ability to recognize when something beneficial is happening, and to acknowledge its external source. And I was like, Oh, that is a big part of it, which is like, I didn't make it rain. I didn't even like, even if I'm sitting on my back porch, like even the recognition of like having this beautiful back porch, like I didn't have to have this, this wasn't just because I deserve it. Like there was a whole lot of luck and good fortune involved in having a house that has a back porch, and being able to have the time to sit up like all of this kind of recognition, which I think is interesting, because so much of suffering, is grappling with how sometimes things are just random, huh?
Christine Koh 7:31
Wow. So we're talking about kind of, if I'm trying to wrap my mind around this correctly, is sort of embracing the random both for I mean, sometimes it'll just be confusing, perhaps in moments of suffering. And sometimes it will be a moment of serendipity like your moment with the rain and thinking about things that come to chance. I mean, just this past weekend, I was away with my family. And all of a sudden, my 19 year old, you know, who is by all technical measures, a grown adult, starts freaking out outside, and she's like, there's a rainbow, there's a rainbow. And we all run towards it, you know, and it was that joyful, tiny, little moment. And I don't think anyone said explicitly, I feel so grateful for nature. But I think that was definitely there, you know, similar to the rain that you experienced, like, wow, like, I'm noticing this right now. And this is pretty cool.
KC 8:23
And it's interesting, that connection of like, a lot of what makes like suffering extra hard is kind of like, I don't have a better term than meaninglessness, but like the randomness of it, right, like, bad things happen to good people. And we don't always have control and things don't just go according to plan. And there's like an extra level of sort of reckoning with that suffering. And I'm wondering if maybe gratitude is like, bringing that same like, ying yang idea to the other side, which is like, Oh, this is happy. This was joyful. But like, sometimes joy is so random. And
Christine Koh 8:56
those are gifts. I think that's like, it's such a I think it's a wonderful framing. And I think actually, you know, because if you are living in a on the grid, very prescribed society that way, I know you and I are I mean, we're used to control. And I think for some people control is very scary. So I think that is another reason why especially in times of suffering, that feeling that you're being done unto or that something's happening to you. It's difficult. It's very difficult. I
KC 9:27
wonder if that's one thing, and I want to get into toxic positivity quickly here because I don't want to just talk about how great gratitude is, but I wonder if that's something that recognition of sort of the randomness of joy. There's this like, so I went to seminary for my counseling degree I don't know if you know that I consider myself like a deconstructed seminary person but there's always this like interesting like Bible quote, where they talked about like, God give like it rains on the just and the unjust, basically. And so there's kind of this randomness of like knowledge Just like happens to you like sometimes good things, Joy things. And I wonder if like being able to embrace that on the joy side somehow helps with grappling with it on the suffering side,
Christine Koh 10:11
I think so it's a little bit and my background is experimental psychology, but it is positive reinforcement, right? If you embrace the joy in random things that happen. And you know, that's possible, that good things can come from random, you know, that'll help you hopefully, eventually, you know, mitigate or manage and those moments where the suffering feels random, I think you're onto something with this in another book. I know, right. It
KC 10:37
also reminds me of my favorite Rumi poem, where they talk about like, feelings and emotions, it's basically like, open the door to all of them, and welcome them in, even if they turn over the furniture and wreck the room like welcome them like guests. And I think there's a little bit of that there too, like, this openness of like, everything changes. And that can be hard because it means like, good things can change. But it can also be really freeing, because it means that even the difficult things change.
Christine Koh 11:09
Like that. So
KC 11:11
I think the issue with like, a lot of that good stuff there is when we rushed to it. Like I think we get so uncomfortable sitting with the difficult things in life that when somebody brings us something difficult, we want to like rush them all the way to the like, oh, but there's joy, and there's pain, and there's negatives are there. Right. And I think that's kind of where the term toxic positivity comes from. And while we're on the subject of definitions, what how would you define toxic positivity? I
Christine Koh 11:39
mean, I think it is a focus on the positive with complete disregard for lived experience, complexity of a situation, all of those things, and I think it invalidates experience, it's very, I like to think that because I do have an optimistic side to me, I like to think that perhaps the ideology was well intentioned. And thinking let's, you know, let's look on the bright side all as well, I mean, sure. Okay. That's like a, that would be just dandy if we didn't have all these other things in life, but it is really, really problematic. And I'm curious about your definition, as well. But I can later speak to some thoughts I have about how that ties to culture and kind of, I mean, I think it messed up my ability to emotionally process things a lot early on, over
KC 12:31
Sure. Yeah, I think about, I think there's like kind of two, like, I think definitely what you said like on the benefit, like I think we are sometimes wanting to help be like, Okay, if I can help you feel better by pointing out good things. Or if I can help you feel better, by making the thing, you're worried about a smaller thing, so you don't have to feel so strongly about it. But that doesn't ever work, right. But I think there's also this other side, where we as a society, like we're just not very good at sitting with difficult emotions and distress. And so when you come to me, and you're in distress, I'm uncomfortable, like, I don't know what to do with it. It's almost this, like, psychological, like, I don't know what to do with my hands, right? Like, I don't know what to do with myself. And I don't know what to say, and I'm uncomfortable. And it's almost like, I don't know how to deal with the feelings of discomfort that I feel in the face of your pain. So I really want to like fix it. And I want to tie it up in a little bow, so that I can not only stop your discomfort, but I can also stop the discomfort that I'm feeling at like not knowing how to walk you through this really difficult thing. Yeah,
Christine Koh 13:37
I mean, it's difficult. Just I love the way you articulate things. And I think that's one reason why I was so excited to talk to you. I mean, I think that you're really outlining how the reason it's so hard is because you or any of us as a human not only has to try to if you're in a an empathic space, you want to try to hold space and listen to the other person. And you're like, oh, my gosh, I am really uncomfortable as all get out. So I need to also manage my feelings while I'm simultaneously dealing with these other person's feelings. And it can be a lot. You know, I understand the avoidance. I mean, listen, I grew up in the Korean patriarchy. So we were, we were all about avoiding. So I get it, but I think it is really hard. And actually, when I think about phrases like good vibes only, like I think about kids wearing that on shirts, and like how that would seem like a cute shirt to pick up and how my 12 year old probably wouldn't think anything of a shirt would think, Oh, that's cheerful good vibes only but the fact that it really sets the stage for Yeah, you better only have your good feelings because I don't want to see your bet your negative emotion negatively valence emotions like Yikes, like that makes me that makes me very uncomfortable. I want my kids to have all the feelings. So
KC 14:51
you and I are both mothers. And you talk a lot about motherhood and I find that toxic positivity is like so are prevalent in parenting world. I mean, I want to say parenting world. But if I'm being honest, it really is specific to motherhood. Like, we are supposed to be happy and cheery and self sacrificing with a smile on our face. And there are so many times I will see someone talking about motherhood being hard. And then you open up the comments section, right, let's say we're on social media, and it's like, so much of that toxic positivity of, well, at least they're healthy. And you'll miss this one day. And just think I mean, it's just so so much. I mean, what has been your experience with toxic positivity when it comes specifically to parenting?
Christine Koh 15:41
Yeah, I mean, I think I mean, I'll just back up and very briefly say that my own history as a small person growing up was very chaotic, many adverse childhood experiences or ACEs if your community knows that acronym. And so I spent a lot of my early parenthood, trying to unwind overcompensation, being a perfect insert, air quotes, parent, all of that, because it just, it wasn't realistic. It's not realistic, it will drive you to madness, if you try for it, or unhappiness and disappointment with yourself and lots of guilt. So I guess I would say there were some act of unwinding I needed to do and as somebody who's been writing on the internet in the parenting world since 2006. I mean, like you said, I see it in the comments, I see it all over the place. I see it in Mother's Day, Roundup memes. I mean, Mother's Day is complicated. Some people have terrible relationships with their mothers. I mean, there's so so many things that don't get addressed. And I will say I think one of the most important things that we can do as parents in community is have conversations like these, where we air all the different sides and complexities of it, because that is one thing, I'm kind of a no holds barred person on the internet. And I talk about the good, bad and the ugly, very freely. And without fault. Anytime I talk about the really difficult stuff, I get a million DMS from people saying, I feel like I exist, you know, thank you for letting me see that it's okay to feel this way. Like, it's almost as if, in the face of toxic positivity, people lose sight of the fact, understandably so that they can still be really great parents and also be angry or frustrated or all these other things. And so I think sometimes people just need a reminder for that. It doesn't have to be for me, obviously. But I think the more we can talk about it and be honest and not try to gloss over the things, the better it will be for all of us.
KC 17:43
You mentioned how much your heritage sort of informs some of your view of toxic positivity and wonder if you could talk about that some? Sure.
Christine Koh 17:51
I mean, I think my growing up if I had to characterize it in broad strokes, I mean, classic immigrant Korean family, you know, my parents moved, well, they were already in the United States, but they started raising their family moved to one of the best, I'm using air quotes, because I don't really believe in best suburbs around but near Boston, literally a bus ride away from Harvard, so they could send all seven other children to Harvard. I mean, this was I mean, this is just you can't get more textbook. And there was also so much chaos behind the scenes, but we were always the party line was always to gloss it over. pretend nothing's bad happening is happening. If something bad is happening, hide it. I mean, I think there's also a measure of Asian silence and compliance culture in general that probably feeds into that. Not to mention like achievement culture, let's just focus on all the good metrics you might be achieving. Nevermind that that was difficult for me to even do because I was so mired in chaos and problems. But I think that all of that fed together to a situation for me personally, I won't speak to my six siblings, where I really stuffed down my feelings. I was tremendously emotionally repressed, I was oriented towards only focusing on the things I could report out on that were good if I had anything good. And I mean, it's work that I have been actively unwinding for as an adult. I mean, I actually you'll appreciate this given your experience in the field, but I actually have a children's feelings chart in my office, like a five by six grid of faces. Like that's how much I had to go back is like, okay, there's a feeling other than anger, and it's cousin frustration. And what is that?
KC 19:35
I'm such a fan. I think all feelings chart should have the faces. Because sometimes that's what it's like, I'm looking at the faces like which of these faces resonates with how I'm feeling?
Christine Koh 19:47
Yeah, I did. I was like, Okay, who produced? This is a total sidebar, but I think you'll appreciate it. But I was like, produce this feelings chart because it's illustrated it's not real faces and all the like, negative Ellen's feelings the kids look Asian, I guess. But anyway, it's been very helpful. It was given to me by my social worker, mother, mother in law. So, you know, I know there's a lot there. I mean, that's just the reality. There's a lot there. But I think, you know, I would say when we focus too much on the good stuff, and we tamp down, like all the other range of emotions, like it leads to problems.
KC 20:26
Okay, so I have a follow up question. Let's pause one second, we're going to hear from some sponsors, and then come back. So you mentioned that your family your parents immigrated? Is that correct is part of what happens because I feel like I've heard this before of first generation immigrant families where if your parents go through something really difficult, and they have to work so incredibly hard, through lots of hardship, that you're your problems, in comparison, seem like you're not really allowed to complain about them. Because in comparison, they're nothing compared to the problems and the challenges that your parents face. And so it creates this weird dynamic of maybe not feeling as though you're allowed to feel the full breadth of sadness, or grief or pain or disappointment, because there's almost this comparison, this measuring.
Christine Koh 21:20
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I actually am this week. It's my birthday tomorrow, actually. And it's a milestone. Happy birthday. Thank you. It's my 50th birthday. So it's a big one. And while you're the first person who's going to know that this is even happening, Casey because I just haven't even I haven't even told my husband, I'm doing this, but I'm writing a letter to my mom, and I'm gonna give it to her with a cash gift. It's very Korean, but it's like a gift to her as well on this milestone birthday. But in it, I do, it occurs to me, I start the letter by saying and in it, I thank her for a whole bunch of specific ways. She supported me in my life. But I start the letter saying something like, I know I've said this many times. But I truly have so many moments when I reflect on your life, raising seven kids being an immigrant dealing with racial atrocities, this, this and this. And I don't know how you did it. And I think that Gulf is even bigger for us. Because, you know, seven kids versus two kids, that alone is staggering. But then, you know, it was in coming to America and learning in English was the third language my mom had learned. I mean, there was a lot going on. So yes, I think that yeah, I don't complain a lot to my mom, probably. And I guess you're hitting on the reason for that? Well, it's
KC 22:38
interesting, because I feel like we've talked up to this point about toxic positivity, really kind of being something that we do to each other. But you can see how in certain contexts, like we would learn to do it to ourselves. Sure.
Christine Koh 22:51
Sure. Yeah. I think that makes sense. Because even when I think about, you know, our lives, and when things happen, I'm using bad and air quotes when bad things happen. I mean, I definitely have moments where I'm like, Oh, hold on, maybe I shouldn't really be feeling this way. Because I have a lot, I have a lot of gifts. And I think and a lot of things are really good. And while it's good to make note of those things, and be aware of them, you know, per our earlier conversation about joy and unexpected things. I mean, all the experiences matter.
KC 23:22
So when I think about, you know, my when I think about the most toxic positivity that I experienced in my life, and certainly parenting is a big part of it. But you know, coming from a church background, you know, toxic positivity has this like religious cousin that I call spiritual bypassing, yes, talk more about that. And I didn't come up with that phrase. It's a phrase that I've heard before. But spiritual bypassing is basically the idea that, you know, you come to me and say, Oh, I'm really struggling, I'm really you know, that that together, and I kind of give this faith based answer that tries to do the same thing that toxic positivity does, right, like, either says, we'll just have faith just let go and let God just something to kind of button it up and put a nice little bow on it. And just okay, it doesn't don't You don't have to feel that way anymore, because God is in control. And it's almost like these like thought stopping cliches, which I think are really common in toxic positivity and spiritual bypassing. But I've always appreciated that term bypassing because I feel like that's like at the heart of what toxic positivity is. It's like, I want to bypass the very real and valid things happening here. I don't want to give you any room to process them or to feel them or to explore them. It just assumes that what we want to do is move on as fast as possible because it feels bad, it feels yucky, let's move on as fast as possible to what will feel better. And I mean, it makes sense because nobody likes to feel distressed. But you can rush Go off and rush from the distress in a way that doesn't resolve any of those feelings that represses those feelings that invalidates those feelings, and actually makes the distress worse, right? And then you're lonely and then you feel isolated. And then you don't feel listened to you don't feel like any of it has been resolved. And you almost feel ashamed of it. Because there's this I mean, US culture is so impacted by Puritanism and religion in that aspect, that there really was this kind of dichotomy of if you are spiritually Well, if you have good faith, you won't even have those distressing feelings, right. And so if you are struggling, well, there must be something wrong with your faith, or that you must not be strong enough. And so we have all this shame of even having this bad, distressing experience to begin with. Because why can't we just be happy for what we have? Why can't we just have faith and make it go away? So I've always appreciated that term spiritual bypass? Because I saw it so so many times when I was involved in church.
Christine Koh 26:06
Yeah, that's really interesting. I had not heard that term. And I think it makes a lot of sense. And actually, it's interesting, because as I think about the approaching holiday season, I wonder if there is some amplification on that too, because I mean, we're coming up to times where typically people might only go to a church, you know, a couple times a year, and one of those is the holidays. So there is there are just so many potential factors where everything can come together. And it can kind of be a little bit of a perfect storm, this time of year. And
KC 26:38
I'm so curious if we can start sort of thinking out loud about how do we utilize sort of the power and the strength that can come from gratitude? And and I think in some sort of related ways, like optimism, without bypassing without invalidating?
Christine Koh 26:58
Yeah, I will say that one of my favorite tactics, and you know, I'm not the trained therapist here, but I am, I'm a big fan of cognitive reframing. And I actually have a whole episode on edit your life called The Power of cognitive reframing, because and I think one of the reasons I like this exercise, and for me, what happened was a couple years ago, or a year ago, when I was in this very deep, dark season, my life, I felt like a lot of bad things. It's gonna sound a little child like, it wasn't that they were happening to me, but I just felt like overrun with bad things in a particular vein of my life. And it was very, I just felt like powerless, I felt offended, I felt hurt. I felt a lot of things. And I realized, I'm trying to think if I know I didn't even have my, my current therapist at that time. So I was really Miring through this alone, but I did think to myself, wait a second, I think what I need to do is a little exercise with myself, literally in a Google Doc, where I had in one column, like the situation and what was bothering me. And then in the next column, like how I was going to what the actual reality for me was. So sorry, let me just give you a quick example. Because I think that's always helpful for listeners, I can't remember all of them. But just as a general one, in this situation, I felt offended because my value as a person was being questioned, as you know, a creative person, whatever I was given being given direct signals that I was not valued, appreciated, whatever. So my reframe was, I know my value, I don't need these people to so that's actually a moment where I could be grateful for like, wow, I have evidence of a lot of skills, and a lot of a lot of things that I've done, like, I'm clearly a competent person, the reframe there was, I know my value, my value in the world, I don't need, first of all, this interpretation by these other people is just wrong. And I don't need them to validate and tell me whether or not I'm a good person. And it was shocking to me how the simple act probably took me 10 minutes, maybe to sit there and think about a reframe. I think there was only one that I struggled to really flip the script on. But all the other ones I was able to do pretty quickly. And afterwards, I was like, wow, you know, so much of this game is in our heads. And I mean, it's also real, it's in our feelings, it's in our bodies. It's everywhere. But there is a lot we can do in thinking about the alternate reality to the situation. And if you have pushed back there, I'd love to hear it. But for me, it's been very, very helpful.
KC 29:40
I think it is really helpful. And I want to harken back to something you said at the beginning of the episode where you talked about like this unique human ability to hold at the same time, like the joy and the suffering. And I think what makes a cognitive reframe really powerful and what keeps it from being the Toxic positivity is that we get our we get the reframe. And an understanding that the reframe of like, I know my value doesn't fix the pain that someone else doesn't. It's not supposed to Trump it, it's not supposed to make it go away. It's not supposed to fix it. It's just supposed to give you something else. That they come together. Like, we can go, it is so painful that so I've just done something similar with like when I get hate comments online, and people will say, you know, you're a bad mom, or you're lazy or you're this or whatever. And people, it will really be hurtful. And of course, yeah, sometimes people will respond to that. And they'll be like, but you know, you're not a bad mom, or you know, you're not lazy and be like, you're right. I do know those things. But like, so then why does it upset you? And I was finally able to say like, well, like, when there's this aspect of okay, this hurts because I might be tempted to think those things are true. And I can use those cognitive reframes to understand, Okay, what's actually happening here is like, this person doesn't like me, they're thinking of the most painful thing they could say to me, they don't know me, this is not their, like, accurate assessment of me, this is just them trying to be hurtful. Here are the things I do know about myself. And that I'm doing that as a both and not an either, or, because then I can actually get honest about why it's so painful. And what I finally realized was like, you know, I'm grateful that I know my worth, I'm grateful that there are people that do see my work. I think what it is, is that this, it's still painful that someone wants to hurt me, even if they're not true, it's painful that there are people out there that want to bring you down a peg. And there was something about like nailing down the accuracy of that pain that made it tolerable. Like I could let it be there. I could feel it, I could grieve over it. And I didn't have to, like swim away from it really fast. Because I was worried about my worthiness. It's like, No, my worthiness is okay. But gosh, that was painful. And it gets to be painful. And I get to be sad about it. And it's kind of this it also reminds me of I was waiting for my daughter to get off the bus the other day. And I was so excited to see her. She gets off and she's a little bitty and she's like, totalling towards me. I mean, she's five, but it was like still a total because her backpacks really heavy. Mom, I mean, like the moment she gets off the bus, she just screams mom, like so excited. And she's at that age where like, she doesn't matter how many kids are around, she's going to yell for her mommy. And I remember thinking like, this is so precious. I'm so grateful for this moment. I am going to miss this. And I know that there's a lot of toxic positivity around that, like you'll miss this mama, like you'll miss all this. And the truth is is like when you say that to me when I'm saying like I'm really overstimulated, I can't get a moment to myself. It's really hard to do that. Like, I'm not going to miss those things. No, I'm not. Am I going to miss her coming off the bus and being that age where she doesn't care what anybody thinks? And she's Yes. And so the healing part wasn't? Oh, don't be upset about feeling so overstimulated all the time. It was, oh, they come together, like it's a package deal. Like it's a package deal that what's really hard right now is how much my kids need me. And I'm overstimulated. And it's a package deal, that that timeframe comes with these gifts, comes with these moments, comes with these moments that I'll never, you know, get to have outside of this stuff that's really hard, because it's a package deal. It's this, the suffering of it and the joy of it. And being able to hold space for both of those things, made it easier to be grateful for those moments and made it easier to honor how painful it is. And so I think that's kind of my feedback about cognitive reframing is that when someone uses it to cancel out the pain, it can be toxic, but when we use it, to give us the hold intention, it all is not lost. I think that's when it's so powerful.
Christine Koh 34:29
Yeah, this is reminding me of a beautiful I love you. I just love all your framings on all this stuff. And it reminds me of a conversation that is will be live by the time our episodes go up. But it's an interview I had with Daniel Koch Balfour. She is an incredible artist. People know her as oh happy Danny on Instagram. She's an author and activist and, you know, she does all this beautiful artwork, but it's very justice oriented and we talked a lot about how you need to give I used to suffering and through hard times, because and this relates to something you said earlier is in order to move through, and then beyond the feelings to your next thing, you have to process it, you have to release the valve, you need to do the things you need to go through the feelings. And then you can move towards growth. And she her phrasing about it she was talking about, we were talking about politics, and she was talking about how hope and doubt are not enemies, you know, she sees a lot of people have one, you know, one thought or the other on that, like, how can I be hopeful when there's all this terrible stuff happening? And her point was, yes, you can absolutely be hopeful while acknowledging that you have doubts about the world based on what you've seen and lived through and experienced, and that it's okay to do those things. So I think that that's a good episode for people to listen to, because it is a real caring reframe on and caring example, related to this conversation about really living in both of those spaces and allowing yourself to feel and just be in in all the dimensions. I
KC 36:07
know when I was in rehab, so I was like, 16, when I went to rehab, and they had us do so many things. And I mean, so many things that like I couldn't even really tell you what was and wasn't helpful, because it was just like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. And so who knows, I couldn't like parse that all out. But one of the things that they had us do was we had to write down 10 things we were grateful for every day. And at first, it just felt like it was a very like hollow thing. It felt very silly. And I think if I asked you to sit down today and write down 10 Things you are grateful for, like you could do that. And they would be like big things. I'm grateful for my kids. I'm grateful that I have a roof over my head I'm grateful for but I was in rehab for 18 and a half months. So realize that long, okay. Yeah, at some point, you're like 10 things.
Christine Koh 36:52
That's a lot of words, again,
KC 36:53
10 new things Wait, do
Christine Koh 36:56
they have to be different things.
KC 36:57
So they didn't have to be different. But like, they were kind of supposed to not just be the same list every day. And it was so frustrating at the time. But by the time I was like, a couple a few months in, I was like, I feel like I was really scraping the bottom of the barrel. So I would I would have to like look back at my day and be like, what's like, one thing that gave me just a ping of pleasure today. And so it ended up being things like, the clouds were really pretty today.
Christine Koh 37:27
Yeah,
KC 37:28
my lunch was really good today. And as much as the idea of like, start a gratitude journal, like makes me want to put my head through the drywall. I have to say like, I think there was something to that, that it eventually drove me to the tiniest of observations about my day. And also the kind of like, take for granted XRF my day, like, yeah, I am, like grateful that my like sums, I remember, sometimes I would have things like I'm grateful at how comfortable My bed was last night, like I found the perfect sleeping position.
Christine Koh 38:07
That's huge. I mean, I personally love sleep. So that's a big one.
KC 38:14
And the oh, that didn't erase all the really difficult things I was going through. But I think that in it is true. That gratitude as a as a skill, you know, it's an emotional muscle that we have to kind of learn to flex. But just like any physical skill, the form is important. And so like I think of like, toxic positivity is like having kind of like bad form, like if you you're not actually going to make that muscle stronger. If the form is poor over and over and over. Like, there has to be this like, it's okay to feel all of those feelings. Sometimes gratitude isn't about finding the good in what that shitty situation is. Sometimes it's what if I just what brought me joy today? And what were the little things today? We know what was that rain? What was that this? What was that the other end? So I think powerfully though, it is like it has to be said that it is so much more. It is so much easier to be grateful. When I am adequately supported. Yes,
Christine Koh 39:21
absolutely. I mean, oh, hi. You know, I think about I have the privilege of so much support. Like when I think back to my mom and all the things that she was dealing with, you know, I have a very supportive partner in my life. And so I think it makes a lot of difference. But yeah, I mean, I think it's a whole other conversation to talk through the systemic issues that are in play when we talk about the ability to have things to be grateful for, but or to tap into gratitude. And I think that is probably why I mean it's one of the many reasons why. You know, when you were talking about the as tiny little things that you were looking for, whether it was your lunch or the bed or whatever else, I do think as a practice, I've probably adhered to the power of that really strongly. Because it might also be because, you know, I was a former experimental psychologist, and I really like, you know, that is all about tiny little tweaks and dials and adjusting them and seeing what works and what doesn't, and what is a result and what is not. But I think that when we can look for those tiny little moments, and this refers also relates to a mindfulness conversation you recently had on your show that I hope you link up in your notes, because it's a great related episode to listen to. But I think when we can tap into those things, you know, and really think about what are potential levers for gratitude and things that can help us tap into that. The stakes are kind of lower, right? Because if you're identifying really small things, like it's accessible, and I think that's what's been really powerful for me, especially when I've been in my heart seasons,
KC 40:58
when I think it's most especially for practitioner, not practitioner, but like professionals like those of us who will be in the place of recommending gratitude as a practice or as an exercise to understand the limits. Like it cannot bandaid over systemic issues. It cannot fit like it is powerful. And there is this aspect of I mean, you you hear stories of people going through the most horrific circumstances and talking about finding beauty, that beauty still exists. But I think what is so critically important is that that story has to be that person's story. It cannot be prescribed, right, like it cannot be prescribed, we'll just find the beauty just tried to find the beauty Christy and I know that your father was just murdered, but find the beauty, right? Like if you came on here and was like my father was murdered. And let me tell you the story of how I navigated how horrific this situation was. And yet something in that, I learned that life is still beautiful, that life is worth living like that would be such a powerful story. But it would be so inappropriate and harmful for you to come to me in that moment of look what has happened to me and be like, well, you know, life is still beautiful, Christine, like totally. And so I think that there's like an interesting dynamic there of empowering yourself to kind of sort of find this Muscle Flex this muscle is very different in its outcome and impact on you than prescribing that to someone. Oh, yeah,
Christine Koh 42:34
it's such a personal process. And like anything, you know, some things are going to work for others. I mean, it depends on where your capacity to see and perceive is. There's a lot going on, but I do like the way you phrased it as an emotional muscle to flex because I think it's true. It requires practice and intention. And you know, probably a few tears. But I think I think we can all get there together in our own like slow and incremental ways.
KC 43:01
Yeah. All right. Well, I want to pause for one more word from our sponsor, and they come back and I want to ask you a parenting question as it relates to this. Okay. Okay, so before we wind down our this first part of this series, so my question is, you know, going back to this, this idea of parenting kind of being really hard, but being really joyful, and talk positivity. But I want to also ask you, if you have any thoughts or advice on how do we as parents not push toxic positivity onto our kids, while wanting to teach them the importance of gratitude and optimism and all these things? Because, you know, it's so difficult when your kid comes home and goes, Hey, Johnny didn't want to play with me on the playground. I don't have any friends. Nobody likes me. We want to jump right to like, yes, everybody likes you. You're so beautiful. You're so wonderful yourself. And you know, that we're doing the thing that we dislike when people do to us, which is sort of bypassing all of that pain and just trying to fix it. And I get in this place sometimes where I don't want I want to validate those feelings. And I want to teach her what to do next, though, like, I don't want to just like wallow, I don't want to just go Yeah, I guess you're you're right. You're right, honey, no one's ever gonna want to play with you again. But I find myself being you know, how do I do that? I don't want to just correct the cognitive, you know, things there. But I want to teach both. I want you to feel valid in your feelings. And I want to teach you how to move through to something that's a little more positive. Yeah,
Christine Koh 44:28
I mean, I think there are a couple of things that and it's sort of, they're sort of dependent on sort of where where the emotional volume is the with the kid in the moment and like perhaps your own I mean, it's always best to be in a calmer place. And you know, when you have these conversations, and certainly certainly for with my kids and as a parent, there are certain situations they might have that are definitely a trigger for me. So I have to watch myself in those situations that I'm not spilling my issues on them. I do think there are a couple of things. I mean, one And is we as parents, I think, as a generation seem to really want to fill that space with our thoughts. And so I really encourage people to listen first, really let you know, let there be a little awkward silence, silence, let your kid talk through, let them be upset, it's okay for that stuff to be happening. And I also think, before you offer whatever you think the solution is, I find it very effective to ask my kids what they think, because kids have a creative and different lens on things than we do as adults, they, by virtue of just years, and being younger, they have presumably a little less baggage in general. So I found that sometimes their thoughts about how to handle something are totally different, and sometimes totally better than what I would I would suggest. And also one thing I have actually been doing with my oldest, who is 1990. Now, and as I said, you know, by all counts and measures as a grown adult, but when she asked me for advice, I'm really working on trying to help her remember that she's in charge. So I usually start by saying, Well, you know, ultimately, I know you're going to do what you're going to do. And since you asked, you know, here are my thoughts, but I really want her to know that these are just thoughts and recommendations and possible options, but that she needs to try to tune into her gut, and think about what would be good in that situation. And the last thing I'll say is that I think it's so important for us as parents, too. I know, people probably roll their eyes when they hear the word modeling. But what I'm talking about is modeling the full range of emotions, like I used to not want to be upset in front of my kids, because for me, you know, emotional repression was a source of safety for me, you know, if I was not noisy and didn't cause a big stink, then I would be safe, right? So now I'm working on being okay, I actually just like had a huge meltdown last week about something and it was really quite funny. I was sitting on the front steps crying and my 12 year old was like, had an arm around me and she's like, It's okay, mom, just let it out. Like, all the feelings are good. I'm like, okay, okay, can hear her reflecting back, that's good. But I'm letting them see that that's okay. Because kids need to know that tough stuff is going to happen. It's going to feel terrible. And then they will get back up in some way, shape or form. It may not be perfect, whatever perfect means. But I think being able to see that in the people that they trust most, you know, ferment in many formation, family formations, like that matters a lot. And I think that's helped my kids a lot to see, you know, because I'm a pretty high octane, high functioning person. So to see me be a total rap, I think is actually helpful. That's what I'm telling myself.
KC 47:46
Yeah, no, I think that's totally true. And, you know, you mentioned that that is sometimes hard for you, because of growing up with sort of a familial history of repression. And I'm thinking to myself, it's probably also difficult if you are someone who grew up in the opposite environment, like if you grew up around adults that were unstable, and we're always sort of emotionally, what's that word, like, label libel on hinge? You know? Yeah, a bit like they were all over the place in a way that wasn't safe, or in a way that made you feel not safe, or in a way that signaled to you as a little kid, like, Oh, they're not in control, I'm not okay, I can imagine that that would also make it difficult to show your emotions in front of your kids, because you're thinking, I don't ever want them to feel this way. And I think it's important to always remember that, you know, our kids have a different emotional context for understanding things than we did. You know, if you are stable, if you are there for your children, if you do make your children feel safe, they're not going to then decide, Oh, my God, life is so scary, and I'm never safe, because they had an experience with their, you know, parent having emotions. And that can be really hard. You know, I always say that. I'm not called to be the parent that I needed. As a child, I'm called to be the parent that my kids need. And it can be hard. But I think that that's, I always feel like I'm simultaneously parenting myself and my children at the same time. And that nobody really teaches you how to do that. No, no. But thank you so much. I'm really excited about getting into part two and starting to talk about maybe some more tactics that we can use to flex that muscle and and how we can find support and get more practical coping skills. And I think that's going to be a great episode, and I appreciate our conversation.
Christine Koh 49:34
Yes, thank you for having me. I feel like I've learned so much from you just in our you know, short time on the mic. And I'm really grateful for the perspective that you bring to the world through your show. You're you're just wonderful. And I'm delighted that we're connected now. Likewise,
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